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A bike being "forgiving" or not (600/1000)

-Ever-

-Ever-

New member
Joined
Jul 24, 2002
Location
San Francisco
Moto(s)
Ducati S2R-1000, Honda ex500
Evening all!

I was just browsing another post and it was talking about how a 250 is a great starter bike, with one of the reasons being that it's more "forgiving" than a 600/1000.

I've seen this term quite often. My take was mainly that an incorrectly-performed downshift on the liter bike would be quite the spectacle.

What else is considered to lend to the "forgiving" term?
 
Learning throttle use and response, less HP to get in trouble, emergency breaking lessons without risking that $14000 superbike and ones own safety. Just a few that come to mind.
 
From what I understand it comes down to cylinder count and also the "power band". Such as if you ride a 500cc bike V.S. a 600cc bike, there are a couple things to consider. And as stated earlier, the cylinder count. A 2 cylinder is not going to have as much pull as a 4. I ride a 500cc ninja, but my buddy has a 636. He has let me "demo" his bike, and there is a huge difference. On his bike (a 4 cylinder), everything happens... quicker... if you will. That and when I come out of a turn on my bike, I have to really put on the gas, on his, a flick of the wrist and I am gone. And when I say the power band. My bikes power band kicks in at around 5.5k, and caps at like 7.5k. So within that range is when I am pulling (dont get me wrong, the bike will still accelerate, but between those two points is when I can really feel the juice). And if I remember correctly, his is between 5k, and goes all the way up to like 12k or 13k. Thats a HUGE difference. So in between those two RPM counts, your bike is so-called "pulling". So Imagine if you accidentally come out of the corner with to much heat and give it a little gas by mistake. On my bike, its more "forgiving" in the sense that it has a shorter power band so if I do make that mistake (I have), then it probably wont cost me as dearly as if I did it on my friends 636. On his bike, if you did that, then the bike is going to jump from lets say 55mph, to 70mph in a blink. And if your a newbie and don't know what to do, then bad shit happens. Its happened to me, so I speak somewhat from experience.
So back to the point, when they say forgiving, they are saying that you can get away with more things on a smaller bike than you can on a bigger bike. That's why a lot of the more seasoned riders say start off with a "smaller" bike so you can get used to throttle control, and also clutch control (and other things as well). Think of it like this; Image you have never flown an aircraft, Would you start off with a trainer, or would you start off with a F-35 Raptor (latest and greatest in our militarizes jets)? So after all of those examples, I think that it can help to explain what it means to have a more "forgiving" motorcycle.

- Ghost
 
Hitting a pothole or rut and having the front end self-correct, instead of shaking you off like a flea on a wet dog?
 
Horsepower is only part of the story. Entry level bikes have brakes that require more pressure to lock, suspension that is more compliant with doing the wrong thing like letting off the throttle mid corner, and generally more stable/less aggressive handling. Oh and the engine/throttle reponse are more eggagerated too.

600s are designed tovput a grin on the face of riders who have enough skill already to appreciate these traits. They are not designed to forgive bad inputs.
 
A big part of it too is careful what you wish for; because you just might get it. Sure, a new GSX-R1000 might look the business, be mega powerful, and razor sharp handling, but if you don't have the skills to wield it, the motorcycle will be riding you instead of the other way around. That being the case, your pretty much at its mercy, or put another way, very unforgiving.
 
tl;dr version: more forgiving means that sloppy/erroneous inputs are not punished as severely.

also: two-fiddies crash really well, so forgiving to your wallet too.

oh, and: in some ways a two-fiddy can be seen as very unforgiving - but not in a way that will spit your n00b ass off into a guardrail. If you let the rpms drop out of the powerband you'll find yourself wishing the bike had pedals. Until you get the rpms back up it's like riding in slow motion, so good training :)
 
Another simple reason; you'll usually be going slower on a 250 when you decide to push the envelope. That means fewer mistakes.

Also, most new riders drop the bike in a parking lot somewhere. Lighter bikes are easier to handle at low speeds.
 
A modern literbike can accelerate as hard as it can brake. It is easy to end up in a situation where an accident becomes unavoidable before you even realize you're going to crash.
 
I think of it like skis. Expert skis go exactly where your body tells them to go. Not where your mind wishes they would go. If you lose your balance a little, they rocket off in the "wrong" direction. On a supersport, the throttle is much more sensitive, so a little wiggle, puts a lot of power to the back wheel. That wiggle could come from having lost your balance in a turn and...bad things happen. Same with the brakes. On a supersport, the brakes are very powerful, so if you grab a little too hard, they can lock up...and bad things can happen. On the other hand, an expert skier can shift their weight a little and navigate down a really hard technical slope (way fun). This would be harder to do on more "forgiving" and less responsive or lower performing skis. An expert rider can put a tad more pressure on the throttle, squeezing a few more drops of gas into the engine, bringing magic into the turn...or gently ease off the brake trail braking into a turn.

Bottom line, an expert has finely tuned sensitivities and can delicately apply the power available, and therefore handle a very sensitive device. A novice doesn't so a more forgiving bike /ski responds much less to any input.
 
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In my mind a forgiving Moto is light weight and handles easily so that it is easy to correct for rider error. Such as a mid-turn change of line. :)
 
rydmohr said:
In my mind a forgiving Moto is light weight and handles easily so that it is easy to correct for rider error. Such as a mid-turn change of line. :)
Click to expand...

This, basically. Forgiving means that the bike isn't so twitchy and hard edged that it penalizes you for mistakes. When I think of this term, I think of handling/suspension. A 99 600F4 is an incredibly forgiving motorcycle. You can ride it like a tard and still look like a champ. R6's of the same era were much less forgiving.
 
Lovedoc said:
Another simple reason; you'll usually be going slower on a 250 when you decide to push the envelope. That means fewer mistakes.

Also, most new riders drop the bike in a parking lot somewhere. Lighter bikes are easier to handle at low speeds.
Click to expand...

IMO, mostly this ^^^

i find it very ignorant to expect a new rider to jump on a modern supersport/superbike and not feel the need to twist the throttle really far to see how it feels. with motorcycles, the latest and greatest usually wont do much to prevent a newb/squid-induced crash... and if you are going 25mph less when you finally bin it, thats better for everyone.
 
Ghost8475 said:
From what I understand it comes down to cylinder count and also the "power band". Such as if you ride a 500cc bike V.S. a 600cc bike, there are a couple things to consider. And as stated earlier, the cylinder count. A 2 cylinder is not going to have as much pull as a 4. I ride a 500cc ninja, but my buddy has a 636. He has let me "demo" his bike, and there is a huge difference. On his bike (a 4 cylinder), everything happens... quicker... if you will. That and when I come out of a turn on my bike, I have to really put on the gas, on his, a flick of the wrist and I am gone. And when I say the power band. My bikes power band kicks in at around 5.5k, and caps at like 7.5k. So within that range is when I am pulling (dont get me wrong, the bike will still accelerate, but between those two points is when I can really feel the juice). And if I remember correctly, his is between 5k, and goes all the way up to like 12k or 13k. Thats a HUGE difference. So in between those two RPM counts, your bike is so-called "pulling". So Imagine if you accidentally come out of the corner with to much heat and give it a little gas by mistake. On my bike, its more "forgiving" in the sense that it has a shorter power band so if I do make that mistake (I have), then it probably wont cost me as dearly as if I did it on my friends 636. On his bike, if you did that, then the bike is going to jump from lets say 55mph, to 70mph in a blink. And if your a newbie and don't know what to do, then bad shit happens. Its happened to me, so I speak somewhat from experience.
So back to the point, when they say forgiving, they are saying that you can get away with more things on a smaller bike than you can on a bigger bike. That's why a lot of the more seasoned riders say start off with a "smaller" bike so you can get used to throttle control, and also clutch control (and other things as well). Think of it like this; Image you have never flown an aircraft, Would you start off with a trainer, or would you start off with a F-35 Raptor (latest and greatest in our militarizes jets)? So after all of those examples, I think that it can help to explain what it means to have a more "forgiving" motorcycle.

- Ghost
Click to expand...

Your concept is so off from lack of experience, which is understandable.
A 2-cylinder Ducati 1198R is going to pull harder than any I-4. So is the two-cylinder v-max.
And you can't compare a 50hp inline twin to a 100hp I4 600.
A Ducati or a v-max have enough brute torque down low that you will shit yourself. The Ducati will be at 12 o'clock with generous throttle, and the V-max will have left a 200ft black trail of what is left of your rear tire.
So no, it's not cylinder count.
 
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