AFM race Gridding (split from Life Flight thread)

[Gary J]

maybe 4-3-4-3 would be better grid.

BINGO! While worrying about Eric's condition last night, and thinking about the events that would have existed on the grid at Sears Point where the race-start crash happened, the very same idea came to mind Zoran.

With the restricted width, and narrow corner entry lane to Turn 1, that exists on the start straight at Sears Point (due to the K-wall on either side), reducing the maximum riders on a row to 4 (from the current "5") seems like it could be a good safety move for the AFM to consider?

Increasing the available space between riders by just a couple feet (via using a 4-3-4-3-etc... type of gridding), might be just enough to help reduce the chances of contact.

The old-days of 75 rider grids with the AFM, were likely what drove the desire for minimizing the number of "rows", by doing the full 5-4-5-4 kind of gridding. With the much smaller grid sizes in the current tough-economy era, that aspect shouldn't need to be a consideration, and perhaps the more spread-out gridding could be considered?

Just some food for discussion (FWIW), in looking for option to potentially reduce the chances of a repeat of Sunday's horrific outcome for a few of our AFM friends.

 

[Cdub17]

Increasing the available space between riders by just a couple feet (via using a 4-3-4-3-etc... type of gridding), might be just enough to help reduce the chances of contact.

4-4-4-4 would probably be OK, it's the 5 rider rows that are too tight

 

[TWF]

5-4=9
4-4=8
4-3=7
if you count that 2 rows may end in same place you can end with that many in single row.
there is no room there to maneuver left right much.

 

[Cdub17]

5-4=9
4-4=8
4-3=7
if you count that 2 rows may end in same place you can end with that many in single row.
there is no room there to maneuver left right much.

is - Zoran for +??

the only problem with 4-3-4 is that the large grids and multi-wave races will have riders starting in turn 11.

 

[TWF]

yes - is +. two rows side by side or number of guys that can easily end in same cross line.
if it cuts down on start accident it is worth it, I don't see problem starting from turn 11, not any more than having to many close to each other.
seams there is more of those in afm that elsewhere.
we have 4-3 in wera and starting on back is not really big issue. there are plenty holes to get through if you have really good start compared to guys in front of you. it really makes big difference.
large grids are problem not only for starts but for everything, reason I always say it should be split by expert and novice and restructured to keep grids as small as possible.
if you take single grid of 60 racers and split it in 2 waves by expert and novice just that alone would make for better racing. saturday afternoon should be used better than for qualifying for novices.

 

[Trackho]

BTW Eric stated that he was far left on a four bike row and they squeezed a bike in between him and the K-way.

Yeah Eric and I were talking about that too--another bike right on the row numbers next to the inner K-Wall, Eric being in the grid spot next to the wall, asked the guy WTF?? And he "said" he was told to go there--that would be interesting to clarify. This would explain ALOT--I just verified Erics gridding postion-- it was against the wall R4 P15--so if someone squeezed in between him and the wall that majorly fucked up

We went and saw Mike too--he looked great, is doing well and is diggin the morphine . Everyone really appreciated seeing my ass in real life (right Mike??)Sveta even smuggled in some chocolate ice cream and a few Penthouses--gotta love that in a woman

 

[machete]

Yeah Eric and I were talking about that too--another bike right on the row numbers next to the inner K-Wall, Eric being in the grid spot next to the wall, asked the guy WTF?? And he "said" he was told to go there--that would be interesting to clarify. This would explain ALOT

I'm sure that he WAS told to be there.

I was told to grid up in a similiar position for Race #11.
I signed up for two extra races Sunday morning. But there was an error, and they signed me up for open twins twice, and not for the last race. When I went to find out why I wasn't on the grid, they explained an error had ocurred.

because of last years points, I should have been gridded further to the front...so they said I could just squeeze into the lane that had 4 bikes and make it a 5 bike grid....example (5-5-5) instead of (5-4-5)
I was asked if I was comfortable with this, and said, it wasn't me that should be comfortable, it was them that should be comfortable. So they said I had the choice of being there or not, but that it would be okay. I was kinda like cause I was sure the dude next to me would also be like

I thought about it, right up until finishing my hot lap, and made the decision to just grid at the back. which was two rows back. I'm glad I did. After seeing that someone posted about the bike being squeezed in, and quite possibly being a contributing factor in the mornings crash.

I don't think there is a reason to make the lines smaller...I just think they shouldn't squeeze people in where there isn't a number, due to an error on registration or gridding. The errors can be avoided. I was told they did not know how to get ahold of me to tell me that the error had ocurrred, but they had my number, cause they'd just registered me for Open Twins. they could have just called me overhead, no?

just my

 

[SVeta650S]

Eric and I give each other the good luck nod, then another bike shows up to Eric's left and rolls up to start between Eric and the wall. Me and Eric look at the guy and both give him the WTF look. I think Eric then decides when he launches he's going to move right a little to give the guy some room. ( total assumption on my part )

So, who exactly decides at the last minute to stuff the grid and add another rider in a spot where there should be none?
I have an issue with that.
And I have an issue with grids where there are 5 4 5 4 rows. It's not just unsafe, it's clearly too dangerous.

So, enlighten me: who make a gridding decision, and who makes and OK's the last minute decision to change the grid and stuff it by adding another rider to the row?

 

[Catfish]

I'm a little confused. Per the unofficial BOD minutes for April:

Post Registration Revisted

Per Berto's request: I want to discuss implementing a post Reg system and fees for the May event.

SR: Probably needs to be tabled to find out if the new system can handle post registration.

http://www.afmracing.org/webforums/viewtopic.php?t=4137


This would lead me to believe that no action was taken to allow post registration of races at the track until after some investigation and subsequent discussion at the May meeting. However,

I'm sure that he WAS told to be there.

I was told to grid up in a similiar position for Race #11.
I signed up for two extra races Sunday morning. But there was an error, and they signed me up for open twins twice, and not for the last race. When I went to find out why I wasn't on the grid, they explained an error had ocurred.

because of last years points, I should have been gridded further to the front...so they said I could just squeeze into the lane that had 4 bikes and make it a 5 bike grid....example (5-5-5) instead of (5-4-5)
I was asked if I was comfortable with this, and said, it wasn't me that should be comfortable, it was them that should be comfortable. So they said I had the choice of being there or not, but that it would be okay. I was kinda like cause I was sure the dude next to me would also be like

I thought about it, right up until finishing my hot lap, and made the decision to just grid at the back. which was two rows back. I'm glad I did. After seeing that someone posted about the bike being squeezed in, and quite possibly being a contributing factor in the mornings crash.

I don't think there is a reason to make the lines smaller...I just think they shouldn't squeeze people in where there isn't a number, due to an error on registration or gridding. The errors can be avoided. I was told they did not know how to get ahold of me to tell me that the error had ocurrred, but they had my number, cause they'd just registered me for Open Twins. they could have just called me overhead, no?

just my

Am I reading this correctly. Were you allowed to post-register, Machete? If so............one must wonder when was the decision made to allow it and what kind of discussion occurred (among whom) regarding any and all complications that could arise with gridding?

 

[markermck]

Pre-registration is done for an EVENT. In the case you are quoting, he was already registered for the EVENT, just not that particular race.

You can add races once you are there, but you must PRE-REGISTER for the EVENT.

 

[TWF]

damn ninja riders, beat me to it.
welcome back sis

 

[skelotor]

you should have to pre register for any race you want to do. If you don't and you wait until your at the track than you should be gridded all the way in the back regardless of points. If you have points in a class and forot to register than that is your own stupid fault.

 

[SVeta650S]

you should have to pre register for any race you want to do. If you don't and you wait until your at the track than you should be gridded all the way in the back regardless of points. If you have points in a class and forot to register than that is your own stupid fault.

Agree. Stuffing a rider into already existing grid affects not only that rider but the entire grid: all people ahead, next to and behind him.

So, who DID make that decision to modify the existing and posted grid at the last minute?
We all take risks racing. But our decision is made on the information we already know. However, when someone suddenly decides to make a change and it's too late for you to do anything about it (e.g. like, perhaps, not race or go to the back of the grid etc.), then it violates one's rights and freedom of choice.

 

[Catfish]

Pre-registration is done for an EVENT. In the case you are quoting, he was already registered for the EVENT, just not that particular race.

You can add races once you are there, but you must PRE-REGISTER for the EVENT.

Ah, thanks Mark. Regardless, this would tend to indicate that the T/S crew is having some issues with those later race entries and getting the grids set with enough lead time to allow for possible changes before grids are posted. I'm with others who believe that slotting an extra rider in on a 4 person row just so that person can be gridded according to points is too dangerous.

So, who exactly decides at the last minute to stuff the grid and add another rider in a spot where there should be none?
I have an issue with that.
And I have an issue with grids where there are 5 4 5 4 rows. It's not just unsafe, it's clearly too dangerous.

So, enlighten me: who make a gridding decision, and who makes and OK's the last minute decision to change the grid and stuff it by adding another rider to the row?

An interesting note, Open Superbike was not always it's own race. In '05 it was paired with 750 production for the season. Progress was such that as more people started racing the bigger bikes it was deemed safer to let that class have it's own race. That started in '06. One step forward negated this round by what appears to be a not too thought out policy. Gotta wonder about priorities. Make sure folks get gridded based on points (and slotting them into a pecarious starting point when some error in the normal gridding process occurred) versus making people suffer the consequences of a gridding error and safely sticking them at the back? In this particular instance, the results show 33 finishers, 3 DNF's, and 2 DNS's. In AFM terms, not too terribly large of a grid.

 

[Catfish]

.......We all take risks racing. But our decision is made on the information we already know. However, when someone suddenly decides to make a change and it's too late for you to do anything about it (e.g. like, perhaps, not race or go to the back of the grid etc.), then it violates one's rights and freedom of choice.

Good point. So if you're sitting there getting amped for a start and suddenly your mind is distracted with.........."humm, I don't like this scenario, with this guy squeezed in here"........how quickly will one think it through and decide to try to pull the plug on going through with the race (provided the 1 board hasn't already gone up!) If you do decide and stick your hands up, I sure hope they see you and delay the start allowing you to exit the grid. If not, you're suddenly in a double fooked scenario. You've got your hands up and an overly-crowded start is about to launch at and around you.

 

[Trackho]

Good point. So if you're sitting there getting amped for a start and suddenly your mind is distracted with.........."humm, I don't like this scenario, with this guy squeezed in here"........how quickly will one think it through and decide to try to pull the plug on going through with the race (provided the 1 board hasn't already gone up!) If you do decide and stick your hands up, I sure hope they see you and delay the start allowing you to exit the grid. If not, you're suddenly in a double fooked scenario. You've got your hands up and an overly-crowded start is about to launch at and around you.

How exactly do you pull the plug?
I would be more afraid to throw up my arms and hope that I don't get nailed
It's much safer to race UNTIL you get punted/run over
So the rest of the grid loses it's choice
AFM got away with it at BW cuz nobody got hurt
Not the case at Inf and the price Eric has to play is STEEP

 

[reedcrr]

How exactly do you pull the plug?
I would be more afraid to throw up my arms and hope that I don't get nailed
It's much safer to race UNTIL you get punted/run over
So the rest of the grid loses it's choice
AFM got away with it at BW cuz nobody got hurt
Not the case at Inf and the price Eric has to play is STEEP

Sad but true... in the video you can clearly see Eric moved to the right directly after the start to give the incorrectly gridded racer to his left some room. By doing this he put himself in line with Randolph, who got a damn good start.

I looked through the rules and this topic is not covered, obviously the race starter in the tower could see the bike gridded against the wall because he would stick out like a sore thumb and the grid managers would not have told the racer to grid there unless they got confirmation from the race director and T/S.

Not a smart move to grid someone in the fashion either way you look at, that racer should have been gridded in the back or not at all. It appears the rules don't specifically say that you need to be in a marked grid position, maybe this should be changed in the next rules meeting so this does not happen again. Late entry or not every racer should have a marked spot. The rules do say that if you miss your grid spot or have to ask you will be gridded to the rear... that seems pretty clear.

 

[Catfish]

How exactly do you pull the plug?
I would be more afraid to throw up my arms and hope that I don't get nailed
It's much safer to race UNTIL you get punted/run over
So the rest of the grid loses it's choice
AFM got away with it at BW cuz nobody got hurt
Not the case at Inf and the price Eric has to play is STEEP

Exactly! Given that scenario, I would have probably done just what Eric did. I never want to be sitting still on the grid when the start is happening. Now if the rider was already there (i.e. did his warm-up lap quicker), then maybe there'd be less pressure to make a split-second decision, but in this instance, how much time elapsed from the moment the said rider showed up on the left of Eric and the 1 board went sideways??

 

[SVeta650S]

Interesting. AFM board's "spokesman" should have already been commenting on this issue hours ago. The silence is very intriguing.

So, is it the race director who makes the grid 'stuffing' call at the last minute? The same director that gets flown from another state to make good decisions to benefit all AFM racers?

Is anyone going to take responsibility for it and explain to us why and how those sorts of decisions are made to ensure safety and well-being of all racers?

Maybe we should bring it up at the next AFM board meeting and get answers to all these questions.

 

[TWF]

Interesting. AFM board's "spokesman" should have already been commenting on this issue hours ago.

or at least he could split this thread somewhere between 1:36 and 5:40 time