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AFM Rule Interpretation - Power Commander in Prod and Traction Control

675 Trip said:
Someone was telling me that the new tc systems use wheel speed sensors that you can't even tell are there...
Click to expand...

No physical contact is needed for a pulse to be generated. Not that anyone is trying to hide wheel speed sensors, but the tech is well-established.

-jim
 
jrace said:
No physical contact is needed for a pulse to be generated. Not that anyone is trying to hide wheel speed sensors, but the tech is well-established.

-jim
Click to expand...
hall effect sensors can get readings from a bit of a distance, but you still need some communication from the front wheel to the ECU. wires?
 
Not so sure I agree with that opinion anymore - did anyone see the race where Checa had issues with the traction control system, decided to shut it off completely mid-race and ended up going faster without it?? I'm sure it's nice to have (much like a slipper clutch) but I'm not so sure it deserves all this credit and I'm pretty sure you still have to be a very talented mofo to ride a motorcycle really fast...
 
Pop a fork cap or a regular cap? :)

Seems like all a big hassle... Open the rules up like superbike and let all the trick stuff show up...

Grab the throttle carefully if your buddy has TC and you do not...

Grab more throttle if your bike is slower and just ride the bikes who cares what they have or come with... It's been working ok for alot of people for alot of years....

Too Simple?
 
Alex, it's true. I went quicker at Sears with my EM off than on...by a decent margin.
 
Now why would anybody think this stuff is traction control? :p

Bazzaz-Z-Fi-TC-Traction-Co.jpg
 
Zerox said:
Now why would anybody think this stuff is traction control? :p

Bazzaz-Z-Fi-TC-Traction-Co.jpg
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Ask Bobby Fong, Ben Thompson and John Haner how high they went to the moon on that system...
 
KimDN said:
Even the 49 state 1098R's don't come with the pipe/ECU already installed. The race pipe would be too loud, and the race ECU wouldn't pass US emissions.
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Actually NONE of the 1098Rs built come with TC enabled. Reason is not emisiones, noise etc. The reason is the cat. You MUST have the CAT removed otherwise you WILL eventually destroy it or possibly set it on fire - since the TC often (but not always) cuts the ignition as it also modulates power according to lean.

Other systems that far less intrusive and dramatic does not effect the CAT since the system only closes the the throttle a bit - smoothing the delivery.

Naturally, with the CAT removed - for off road use - then it makes sense to have ALL the best settings regardless of noise and emissions. In sum, i dont expect - unless some other software/hardware method come out - that motgp like TC rider aids will be on bikes any time soon.

Perhaps we shall see some EMS with gyros and asists without affecting emission control equipment.
 
Zerox said:
Now why would anybody think this stuff is traction control? :p

Bazzaz-Z-Fi-TC-Traction-Co.jpg
Click to expand...

Of course, because if they put it on the label it must be true:

51G2JJM3ZZL._SS500_.jpg


How many "x-ray glasses" should I put you down for?? :rofl :rofl :rofl

C'mon Rick, theoretically a slipper clutch is a "traction control system" so while an "engine management system" (which is basically what you get with all these "TC in a box" systems) is a form of traction control, it's not the "real deal" that's used in superbikes and MotoGP. You can't have real traction control unless you're actually monitoring traction, which by definition requires front and rear wheel sensors. The "traction control" option on the Bazzazz box is an extra $150 vs. the "non-TC" box... seriously, does anybody really believe that you're buying a real traction control system for $150????? You gotta be kidding me!!
 
afmotorsports said:
Of course, because if they put it on the label it must be true:

51G2JJM3ZZL._SS500_.jpg


How many "x-ray glasses" should I put you down for?? :rofl :rofl :rofl

C'mon Rick, theoretically a slipper clutch is a "traction control system" so while an "engine management system" (which is basically what you get with all these "TC in a box" systems) is a form of traction control, it's not the "real deal" that's used in superbikes and MotoGP. You can't have real traction control unless you're actually monitoring traction, which by definition requires front and rear wheel sensors. The "traction control" option on the Bazzazz box is an extra $150 vs. the "non-TC" box... seriously, does anybody really believe that you're buying a real traction control system for $150????? You gotta be kidding me!!
Click to expand...

Dude, Alex you got to get me some of them X-ray google things!! I read an article on them and they are supposed to be 100% effective! Everything I read is true, especially on the internet! :nerd
Oh, if you could pick me up one of them Bazazz deals for my carbed' sv, that would be awsome!!:teeth
 
Hey Berto, were you using the TC effect on your Bazazz for the FX race? Do you know if Yates actually uses the thing?
 
afmotorsports said:
C'mon Rick, theoretically a slipper clutch is a "traction control system" so while an "engine management system" (which is basically what you get with all these "TC in a box" systems) is a form of traction control, it's not the "real deal" that's used in superbikes and MotoGP.
Click to expand...

So it's only breaking the AFM rules a little bit not a lot? Thanks for clearing that up. :rofl

Is that what's happening, the rulebook says "no traction control" and yet some are installing parts with "traction control" printed on the side? Holy shit. Can you insult a post-race tech inspector's intelligence any more than that? :wow

FWIW I think the rule is outdated too, traction control is here to stay. Somebody fix this. It is in the process of being fixed right?
 
Read the minutes from the last meeting. The traction control rule is "on hold" until they can clarify exactly what traction control is. So nothing is illegal right now.
 
Wow, I just heard Randy Mamola talking about systems (presumably in MotoGP) that *learn* tracks and take the traction of the track into account. Teams (or someone) are going out and measuring cambers of each turn and feeding that into the system. Basic traction control is already old news ?!?
 
afmotorsports said:
...You can't have real traction control unless you're actually monitoring traction, which by definition requires front and rear wheel sensors...
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TC on motorcycles is an interesting question, to be sure. And how one defines "monitoring traction" is vital. By definition, to measure rear wheel traction, you'd have to know how fast the wheel was moving and how fast the bike is moving (relative to the ground). A front wheel sensor makes sense in a car, because it rarely leaves the ground, and is therefore a good measure of how fast the ground is moving. Does it make sense on a bike, where the front wheel will leave the ground and slow down? And what of bikes that have a front wheel speed sensor for the speedometer? Do we have to prove the speedo (regardless of whether the speedo display is still present) doesn't talk to the ECU?

And as for the rear wheel speed sensor, because there is no differential (and no opportunity for the drive tire to be moving at a variable rate from the drive mechanism), a speed sensor on the chain, or on the front sprocket would give you the same info. Would those kind of sensors also be outlawed? Again, on many bikes, the stock speedometer is driven by such sensors (even if it's just dividing the tach by what gear you're in). Do we have to prove the speedo doesn't talk to the ECU?

Which is where mfrs have gone, with their ECUs looking for spikes in engine speed that betray a loss of traction. And if I've read your ECU rule correctly, one can install an aftermarket ECU, as long as it connects to the OEM harness, and hasn't been advertised as TC. So an ECU advertised as containing "anti-exploding engine" features that looks for spikes in engine speed (betraying a loss of traction, or possibly an exploding engine) would be legal?

So outlawing wheel sensors woudn't be worth the trouble, and outlawing ECUs because of the way they are advertised doesn't seem prudent.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the FIA solved this (in F1) by going to a spec ECU (which does not look for nor react to spikes in engine speed). Can there be a spec (un-flashable) ECU for each make in AFM? If so, would that level the playing field too much?

No easy answer. I do not envy the board their process.
 
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Eric in Davis said:
Wow, I just heard Randy Mamola talking about systems (presumably in MotoGP) that *learn* tracks and take the traction of the track into account. Teams (or someone) are going out and measuring cambers of each turn and feeding that into the system. Basic traction control is already old news ?!?
Click to expand...

they also have systems that use gps and are optimized per corner...
 
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