I have been riding off and on for 10 years, and still don't know how to get over my fear of low siding. I seem to carry turns wide rather than leaning over a bit further. I have never dragged the pegs or pipes or kick stand, nor have I low sided a street bike. What kind of output does the bike give when it is approaching its maximum lean angle? With no brakes applied, what will the tires do when you start to lean them over too far? I guess my fear is that there will be no feedback; Iwill just go down without any warning. Am I being paranoid? Can I push it a little bit further? Any ideas or techniques I can use?
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Afraid to lean into it
- Thread starter Moto4Fun
- Start date
Lester Green
DROOPY FOR MOD
go to the track and practice. If you lowside, probably no big deal if you are properly geared. You will have plenty of run off and no gaurd rails to hit. Damage to you bike will probably be minimal as well. i would much rather lowside than high side. FWIW i got hit at the track and lowsided at high speed, walked away from it with only a bruise on my elbow. i also lowsided from to much lean on cold tires, again no big deal. lowside IMO is the best scenio in a crash.
You're mind is the holding you back, your bike is a lot more capable than you are or most riders for that matter. if you feel you are entering a corner to hot just lean more, don't chop the throttle and roll on the gas so the suspension stays loaded, hand on and fun!!!
You're mind is the holding you back, your bike is a lot more capable than you are or most riders for that matter. if you feel you are entering a corner to hot just lean more, don't chop the throttle and roll on the gas so the suspension stays loaded, hand on and fun!!!
QuaiChangKane
Anathema
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2003
- Location
- Exiled to the East Coast...
- Moto(s)
- Expediting Darwinism since 1894
- Name
- not Abel
Just stop worrying about the lean angle and keep your eyes off of the road. Practice looking through the turn (at a fixed object in the distance or vehicle ahead, if you must), and you'll find that you stop worrying about lowsiding.
Most bikes will grind footpegs before they're in danger of running out of tire - especially that Seca or RD.
If you could have a friend photograph or tape you when you're leaned over, you'd find that you're nowhere near as close to the ground as you think you are.
The most common novice cornering mistake is looking at the ground out of fear of falling - but it makes you feel like you're leaned over more and travelling faster than you really are.
-Q!
Most bikes will grind footpegs before they're in danger of running out of tire - especially that Seca or RD.
If you could have a friend photograph or tape you when you're leaned over, you'd find that you're nowhere near as close to the ground as you think you are.
The most common novice cornering mistake is looking at the ground out of fear of falling - but it makes you feel like you're leaned over more and travelling faster than you really are.
-Q!
NorCalBusa
Member #294
Sell the bike. Find a new hobby.
If you can't lean, your days are numbered.
If you can't lean, your days are numbered.
I actually like NorCalBusa's response most, so thanks for all of the advice...anybody want to buy a few bikes, mopeds, bicycles, etc? My two wheeler days are done.....
Yeah right!
Nice tank top busa! Do you know how to lean that thing over or do you just ride around on one wheel in a straight line?
I appreciate the advice, I am most in need of a track day. Part of my proble was that the first part of my career was on my RD, and in addition to its bad swing arm bushings and mis-alligned handlebars, the tire was as square as a brick. Of course I didn't know any better. When I got the Seca, I was blown away by the handling! Now, after 3-4 more years of riding, I have completely restored the RD, and have taking motorcycling as a riding hobby more than just a wrenching hobby. Dirt biking has taught me a lot.
I guess my real question is what kind of feedback a bike will give before it lowsides? I can flat track my dirtbike around corners, and I know when it is going to start going down because it starts to slide out in the rear. I watch a lot of racing and those guys really get the rear ends loose sometimes, but sometimes they tuck the front and are done instantly. My chicken strips really aren't that wide (and I am not going out to drag a knee on the streets) I am just interested in knowing how the bike reacts as it gets lower.
Yeah right!
Nice tank top busa! Do you know how to lean that thing over or do you just ride around on one wheel in a straight line?
I appreciate the advice, I am most in need of a track day. Part of my proble was that the first part of my career was on my RD, and in addition to its bad swing arm bushings and mis-alligned handlebars, the tire was as square as a brick. Of course I didn't know any better. When I got the Seca, I was blown away by the handling! Now, after 3-4 more years of riding, I have completely restored the RD, and have taking motorcycling as a riding hobby more than just a wrenching hobby. Dirt biking has taught me a lot.
I guess my real question is what kind of feedback a bike will give before it lowsides? I can flat track my dirtbike around corners, and I know when it is going to start going down because it starts to slide out in the rear. I watch a lot of racing and those guys really get the rear ends loose sometimes, but sometimes they tuck the front and are done instantly. My chicken strips really aren't that wide (and I am not going out to drag a knee on the streets) I am just interested in knowing how the bike reacts as it gets lower.
Lester Green
DROOPY FOR MOD
if you lowside on cold tires, you will most probably get zero feedback. If you start to tuck the front wheel on hot tires you MAY get some feedback when you feel the front start to drift. If you step the rear out on hot tires you will (at least on Dunlop 208 gp-a) slide and then it will grab again, at that point you know what to do. Just rely on your dirt bike days. Hope that helps..
tzrider
Write Only User
The feedback you get will depend a lot on what you did just before the tire slid. If the control input you make is sudden and significant (e.g. whacking the throttle open while adding lean angle) you may be on the ground before you know anything is wrong. Also, moving around on the bike while it's leaned over and making multiple steering inputs in the turn makes the bike more likely to slide and makes it harder to tell when it does.
Assuming you're not doing things like that, the first sign that the tire is beginning to slide is some vibration from that end. If it's the rear, you'll feel it in the seat; if it's the front, you'll feel it in the bars. Once the tire actually begins to slide, you'll feel movement at that end of the bike. When the rear lets go, you feel the seat begin to swing towards the outside of the turn. If the front slides, you may feel the bars begin to "go away" from you or the front may start to tuck, twisting the bars in your hands a little.
The best way to be in a position to notice these things and still have time to do something about it is to make very small incremental changes in your riding. First, make sure your throttle control is really good, make sure you have a turn point that allows good throttle control and then take the corner a little faster each time.
Assuming you're not doing things like that, the first sign that the tire is beginning to slide is some vibration from that end. If it's the rear, you'll feel it in the seat; if it's the front, you'll feel it in the bars. Once the tire actually begins to slide, you'll feel movement at that end of the bike. When the rear lets go, you feel the seat begin to swing towards the outside of the turn. If the front slides, you may feel the bars begin to "go away" from you or the front may start to tuck, twisting the bars in your hands a little.
The best way to be in a position to notice these things and still have time to do something about it is to make very small incremental changes in your riding. First, make sure your throttle control is really good, make sure you have a turn point that allows good throttle control and then take the corner a little faster each time.
Monkey_Boy
K@TT Instructor
fundgh said:
If your bike is either of those listed, the RD or the Seca, both are such flexi-flyers that I doub't you'd be able to feel the front going away. As ab noted, even a well-setup may give you little warning, but the key is developing the feel. It's not something you can learn from a book, you have to experience it.
Learning to trust the bike and tires takes time for many of us.
I'd recommend something more modern if you can swing it. Then you can begin by intellectually believing the bike can lean, and from there it's actually doing it, a little at a time. Key here is to relax and look through the corners...
I would also suggest getting some track time.
christofu
Pavement Inspector
I'm going to venture a guess here. The reason it's a guess it because it's a psychological answer rather than a technique answer and I'm just guessing what's going on in your mind.
It may be that you're thinking too much about what the bike is doing. "Is it leaning over too much?"
You'll enjoy greater success if basically you can get to the point of ignoring what the bike is doing. The goal is that the bike should be an extension of you, not something you have to worry about.
When you're running you don't think about how to pick up your leg and swing it forward, how long to make your stride, how to shift your balance, etc. You want to get to the same point on your bike. You don't worry about your lean angle, you just lean the bike enough to get around the turn for the speed you're traveling.
If, while you're running, you're constantly thinking 'I'm can't keep my balance, I'm going to fall over!!!!' then you're going to overthink it and probaby WILL fall over.
Come out to the track with us. I know it's relatively expensive, but having the same 15 turns to practice allows you to spend more of your concentration on what you're doing than on where you're going. We also work with you on a wide range of skills, including 1-on-1 body positioning drills. That'll help you get your body into a place where you're working in tandem with the bike rather than working against it or upsetting it.
It may be that you're thinking too much about what the bike is doing. "Is it leaning over too much?"
You'll enjoy greater success if basically you can get to the point of ignoring what the bike is doing. The goal is that the bike should be an extension of you, not something you have to worry about.
When you're running you don't think about how to pick up your leg and swing it forward, how long to make your stride, how to shift your balance, etc. You want to get to the same point on your bike. You don't worry about your lean angle, you just lean the bike enough to get around the turn for the speed you're traveling.
If, while you're running, you're constantly thinking 'I'm can't keep my balance, I'm going to fall over!!!!' then you're going to overthink it and probaby WILL fall over.
Come out to the track with us. I know it's relatively expensive, but having the same 15 turns to practice allows you to spend more of your concentration on what you're doing than on where you're going. We also work with you on a wide range of skills, including 1-on-1 body positioning drills. That'll help you get your body into a place where you're working in tandem with the bike rather than working against it or upsetting it.
christofu
Pavement Inspector
Ah. Also, on the subject of feedback before lowsiding...
1. Come out riding with us.
2. We'll have Aftershocks set up your suspension so it works right for YOU. This DRAMATICALLY reduces the chance of anything bad happening
I've had my share of lowsides (while racing, not at trackdays). I also like to feel my bike sliding around underneath me a lot, so I'm very used to feeling what's going on down there.
The key isn't so much lean angle as it is proper braking techniques and throttle management. MOST lowsides are caused by washing out the front. In a track day setting, the usual reasons for washing out the front are:
Feedback. Most modern tires will give you feedback before they "let go". While you're leaning you'll feel the tires just giving tiny little slides for just a fraction of a second. It's very easy to feel. The key is to not chop the throttle because that will overload the front tire even more. Staying smoothly on the gas will help you just finish off the turn.
1. Come out riding with us.
2. We'll have Aftershocks set up your suspension so it works right for YOU. This DRAMATICALLY reduces the chance of anything bad happening
I've had my share of lowsides (while racing, not at trackdays). I also like to feel my bike sliding around underneath me a lot, so I'm very used to feeling what's going on down there.
The key isn't so much lean angle as it is proper braking techniques and throttle management. MOST lowsides are caused by washing out the front. In a track day setting, the usual reasons for washing out the front are:
- Entering a turn too hot and stabbing at the front brakes while leaned over
- Improper body positioning loading the front tire way too much
- Not getting onto the gas soon enough and having the bike basically underbalance
- Chopping the throttle mid turn and loading up the front tire with the entire weight of the motorcycle.
- Improper suspension setup (hence, go see Aftershocks first)
Feedback. Most modern tires will give you feedback before they "let go". While you're leaning you'll feel the tires just giving tiny little slides for just a fraction of a second. It's very easy to feel. The key is to not chop the throttle because that will overload the front tire even more. Staying smoothly on the gas will help you just finish off the turn.
Monkey_Boy
K@TT Instructor
The source of the problem is generally psychological but the answer is often just time and technique along with doing.
The vast majority of us understand the bike and tires are much more capable to perform than our own skills allow. As such, personal experience is key.
The truth be known, the real issue is trust in our self and our own abilities. And it can take time to develop that self-trust. And sometimes it occurs immediately and spontaneously - which is very cool indeed.
The vast majority of us understand the bike and tires are much more capable to perform than our own skills allow. As such, personal experience is key.
The truth be known, the real issue is trust in our self and our own abilities. And it can take time to develop that self-trust. And sometimes it occurs immediately and spontaneously - which is very cool indeed.
These were some of the best replies ever! I know that it is psychological. I definately want some track time, I definately want a newer/better bike. I posted this to get some ideas that will help my confidence. I know I think too much about it, but the replies regarding the bikes feedback, and the causes for low siding give me a lot to think about while riding. Part of my problem is the transition from dirt technique vs. street technique. Some may be similar, but some (cornering) may be different. I want to get on the track with some decent coaching, that will go the furthest. Thanks for such good words.
Z
zrxjake
Guest
First get some good quality tires second trust your tires. if you arent dragging anything you probably have plenty of sidwall you arent using. the key is having good tires properly inflated you can tell how much tire you are using by looking at your chicken strips
MOST riders never get close to using the whole tire on the street.
MOST riders never get close to using the whole tire on the street.