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Another plug for Spencer's school

JeffKoch

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Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Location
USA
Moto(s)
None anymore.
I first attended Freddie Spencer's school in Las Vegas in early 2001, and wound up going out there five times in '01-'03 for levels 1-3 plus two pro schools. While no one will ever confuse my riding skills with those of Spencer, Nick Ienatsch, Jeff Haney, Dale Kieffer or Ken Hill, I've certainly heard and been exposed to all the main points of what the school teaches multiple times - yet I just got back from Las Vegas after attending another pro school. Why did I go back, after attending five previous schools along with several CSS classes, a Schwantz school in Atlanta, and many Star schools, knowing full well by now that if I can't ride like the top guys it's all me, and not any lack of knowledge and training?

Two major reasons.

One, I felt like I needed a tune-up. I basically hit a floor on lap times in '05, making small improvements here and there but not dropping my times like I want and like I feel I should be able to do. Part of this was mechanical hassles that limited my track time, but much of it was me - I wasn't changing things or doing anything differently, I was fine-tuning a flawed strategy. But I didn't understand how that strategy differed from what I should be doing - what, exactly, should I be doing differently? Frustration led to me take a breather this year - street riding, a handful of track days, and just one race weekend (the last, at Wolliwnottub). But the breather helped, and I approached the last race weekend very differently, without the baggage of lots of past laps running the same times and with new energy and focus on how to approach a new track. This gave me Saturday practice times good enough for a trophy on Sunday in OT, though mechanical hassles associated with an exploding exhaust canister pretty much made Sunday a non-event. It was time to re-examine what I do when I ride around a racetrack, and how I might change my approach next year.

Two, I wanted to have some fun riding a motorcycle around a race track. :cool Attending Spencer's school for three days is a great bonding experience with more than a dozen other riders who are a lot like you - folks who love to ride bikes, and want to learn how to ride them better - and with some of the best and most knowledgeable riders in the country teaching the class. It's a helluva lot of fun, and all the riding is on nice bikes you don't have to maintain or buy tires for.

It was awesome on both counts. :teeth

If you've never been to a Spencer school, I'll wager that every single person who has ever attended will vouch for the huge improvement it will make in your riding. There have been multiple threads on this, here and on other boards, so I won't belabor how valuable the skills you will learn there are to riding faster and more safely - past attendees include many or most of the top AFM riders, and just in the classes I've attended I've ridden with fellow students like Nicky Hayden, John Haner, Clint McBain, and Chris Peris, along with a number of national-level riders from other clubs in the U.S. and Canada. The first school is an epiphany.

But later schools are fantastic as well, because while you'll get all the major points after a few schools, you'll always learn something new and valuable - on the track, from watching videos of yourself and other riders, and from talking in the classroom. In my particular case I was shown several small but significant errors in my body position that limited my ability to steer and load up the front tire, and perhaps most significantly I learned that the strategy I'd been pursuing of increasing my midcorner speeds was starting to work against me by compromising my exit drives. When some of the best and most experienced racers in the country tell you to slow down mid-corner, you listen - and it might have taken me a year of getting smoked out of corners and maybe a couple crashes before I could have sorted that out on my own, if at all.

I also learned some valuable wisdom about front tire tucks and why they happen that I'd never heard before, and of course I was reminded of many important things that I'd heard before but need to keep my attention on - including the need to push it and screw up sometimes, make mistakes so I know where perfection really is. This may well be my single biggest obstacle to going faster. The great thing here is, if you have the skills and approach "screwing up" gently enough, you'll almost certainly save it and just loose some time rather than wad up yourself and your bike without ever knowing why.

My 2 cents: There's so much to learn at the school than you'll never get it all in one class (for instance, this week's class barely touched on "body steering", and focused more on lines and cornering philosophy, braking skills, body positioning, smoothness, causes of crashes, and other topics), but if you can only go to one and your focus is racing, go to a Pro School. You'll get a broad overview of many specific techniques that add up to an epiphany about riding around a racetrack.

If you plan to take two or more, and you definitely should if you can find the time and money, and especially if you aren't already a fairly experienced racer, I'd suggest going to Level 1 first because you'll get more depth on fewer fundamental topics. There won't be so many fast riders in a Level 1 class, and the focus is more on street applications, but the classes are small enough that you'll get plenty of individual attention and it all carries over to track riding if that's your main interest. But either way, you can't go wrong.

And if you've been to a class before but aren't making the progress you want to make, go back and find out why. You will, and you'll come back with a whole new attitude.
:thumbup
 
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<<Why did I go back, after attending five previous schools along with several CSS classes, a Schwantz school in Atlanta, and many Star schools, knowing full well by now that if I can't ride like the top guys it's all me, and not any lack of knowledge and training?>>

because you have money to burn ?

i'd wager that any of the top afm'ers could have improved your riding for far less cost. but paying for local instruction seems to be a weak point in many slow afm'ers programs. you don't bring in mario andretti to instruct a driver's ed program. but that's what most of the schools really are, pridmore, spencer, etc. are all way overkill for the types of problems most novice riders are experiencing.
 
Actually some of the best specific tips did come from a top AFMer.

But you're right, you can get great tips from having someone follow you around and give feedback, though of course that's not the same thing as a school with drills, discussion, video, etc. You also get instruction from good folks who aren't socially constipated with small-penis syndrome, which is always a big plus. :cool
 
PantyBuncher said:

i'd wager that any of the top afm'ers could have improved your riding for far less cost. but paying for local instruction seems to be a weak point in many slow afm'ers programs. you don't bring in mario andretti to instruct a driver's ed program. but that's what most of the schools really are, pridmore, spencer, etc. are all way overkill for the types of problems most novice riders are experiencing.

Great. You want to coach me all next year, then? I'll be pitting near the Twin Works guys every round. My name's Kurt. Nice to meet you. :teeth
 
it's all a matter of cost/reward. koch has spent $10k on schools. how much are you offering for a season of coaching ?
 
Shit, I thought this was a school on how to wear women's pajamas to the riders meeting...

(Kurt spencer's idea of "fun")
 
Originally posted by PantyBuncher

i'd wager that any of the top afm'ers could have improved your riding for far less cost. but paying for local instruction seems to be a weak point in many slow afm'ers programs. you don't bring in mario andretti to instruct a driver's ed program. but that's what most of the schools really are, pridmore, spencer, etc. are all way overkill for the types of problems most novice riders are experiencing. [/B]


Many of the top AFM's can and do give good advice. But, I disagree on not getting a novice (trackday, racer) started with good instruction first. Bad habits turn into..... worse habits.

Ken
 
PantyBuncher said:
... you don't bring in mario andretti to instruct a driver's ed program. but that's what most of the schools really are, pridmore, spencer, etc. are all way overkill for the types of problems most novice riders are experiencing.

which is it? overkill or a driver's ed class?

you ever go to any of the schools or are you guessing based on what you've read?

having been myself, i can vouch that the skills they teach are very basic and the fundamental skills one should develop to learn to control a motorcycle. pretty much exactly what you'd want to learn as a novice. learning what the basics are and how to practice them is what allows a moderately competent rider to become a skilled rider.

the notion that supremely gifted riders like Spencer or Rossi have some secret, experts-only set of skills just isn't valid. they just do the basics better than the rest of us, almost supernaturally better it seems sometimes.
 
khill said:
Many of the top AFM's can and do give good advice. But, I disagree on not getting a novice (trackday, racer) started with good instruction first. Bad habits turn into..... worse habits.

Ken

I do think that a complete novice track rider probably ought to go to a track day or two and maybe a lower-cost school (Star, or Keigwin or Zoom-zoom) first, just because it's a fairly large committment to go to a school like Spencer's. The only semi-negative comment I've heard about the school (in the other thread) came from a new track rider who was overwhelmed, and in cases like that it might be better to get some experience first.

Andy, how much does a crash cost?
 
i dunno, it depends on your intent. to me, it's similar to learning to ski, play golf or surf. sure, you can go out there and wing it with a little advice from a friend who knows how. or you can sign up with a professional instructor who's learned how to effectively teach the basics of said sport in a way that a novice can learn them. the instructor doesn't need to be the best of all time, and best-in-the-sport pros don't always make good instructors. but framing the lessons in ways that teach the basics first is nearly universal in my experiences with all these sports.

some people have the talent to pick up a club and master golf, put on skis and run double-blacks or jump on a bike and drag a knee day one. but for the rest of us, professional instruction, especially at the beginning, is extremely valuable. the benefits of a solid foundation far outweigh the upfront costs.

when i decided i wanted to give racing a try, the very first thing i did on a track was go to California Superbike School. a few months later, my second trip to the track was the Spencer school (which looking back on, i should've just done that, but the school schedules meant the first open day was with CSS). third time to the track was a Buttonwillow track day a few days before my first AFM race weekend in which i raced both 600 classes without much drama. i wasn't on the podium, but i wasn't close to last either.

i've since gone back to Spencer for the pro school, though i will admit that my second trip wasn't as informative as the first, but i found it worth it nonetheless and will likely go back for more.

and really, too expensive? racing is the epitome of that, why nickle and dime on quality instruction?
 
JeffKoch said:

Andy, how much does a crash cost?

I think they're on sale till March? $39.99?

I bought a few during the season and they weren't so cheap. I think $499.00 but I got to apply for a "suspended for one race AFM Visa" and got 10% off. Not a bad deal.

AC's coming from the viewpoint where he is an expert: roughing up the suspect...
 
Holeshot said:
AC's coming from the viewpoint where he is an expert...

I still think it's SPS. But I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV. ;)

Crashes suck, and I think the most significant benefits of schools are learning techniques to go faster, yes, but also learning how to not crash. In the last 4 1/2 years of races and track days, I've crashed once due to a mechanical problem, which I'm quite happy with. They get expensive and painful.
 
i was fortunate enough to sit in on a 2 day pridmore course. he obviously knows quite a lot, excepting trying to say that Dunlop Qualifers rock. still, the basic information presented, was just that, basic stuff that anyone competent could teach. no need for an ama superstar.

i didn't just evaluate the course, i evaluated the students, most of them didn't know jack. heck, even creech could have taught them a thing or two, or a dozen things before they'd be even close to needing professional instruction.

i beat berto everytime, and never even been to a spencer school. course, we weren't racing keyboards. but yeah, if i had money to burn, i'd be there. that's a lot of nickles and dimes. i agree, at the point i'm at now, i should be going to the spencer school, but i just can't justify the cost. i'll beat those fools without the info, with just the drive. step back and watch me get the job done.

i will say one positive thing though, some students just won't listen to anyone, in any environment, other than in some big name school. in that event, yeah, the 'school' is going to help them. but long term, those students are still incapacitated, since they can only learn in that environment.

and one more positive thing about the big name schools...they generally have qualified instructors, or at least know their limits. i can't say that about all instructors at all local trackday schools.
 
so who'd you suggest then, Andy? Having been to most of the local schools and having ridden with every local organizer, where should each level of rider be heading?

I'll be booking my spot based on your response.
 
i charge $1000 per day. but at the end of the day i tell you that you're kicking ass, and i also write a letter to the ama asking them to waive the points requirement and issue you an ama superbike license. so, it's worth all the expense.

if you don't like that price, come out to PTT, but i'm not writing a letter to the ama for you, and i won't be telling you that you're kicking ass unless you actually are.
 
so no recommendations, huh?

How about you and I cycle turns begging for money near Wamu ATM's and save up to ride two-up at a Freedie School later this year?

You get bitch.
 
joe said:
so no recommendations, huh?

How about you and I cycle turns begging for money near Wamu ATM's and save up to ride two-up at a Freedie School later this year?

You get bitch.

:x :applause ;) :nerd :shh:wow

:cool
 
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We can't afford Spencer, hard enough to afford racing. So if anyone would like to help and mentor a 14 year old who will listen, intently to every word, try to execute as describe, probably throw away anything that isn't making him go faster in the long run, well we are open to suggestions, opinions, and help.....
he is registered for a flat track school weekend, but outside of that, Keith is too cerebral for him, and Freddie is just to damn expensive, and the racing takes all the rest of the monies..... Just like everyone else. Same boat, different stream.
 
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