Arrested for wearing a helmet in Walmart

[byke]

That one cop seems like the type that probably talks about respect a lot.

 

[bojangle]

Man...must disagree. No indication to me the guy knew the manager was trying to get his attention, and the guy did not seem argumentative at all. He simply explained he didn't hear the manager, the manager had a headset on (so manager talking into the air doesn't seem strange), etc.

The manager walked right up to him. If a manager walks right up to you and you're wearing a full face helmet, inside a store mind you, and playing music, and the manager is trying talk to you, and you though he was "just talking on a headset", you'd probably be well advised to take an extra step, like lifting the visor, looking at him, and making sure he wasn't talking to you. No, this seems like a convenient excuse. He's the one wearing a full face helmet with a reflective face shield in the store and appearing to intentionally ignore the manager. No common sense there.

This is in Arizona.

https://statelaws.findlaw.com/arizona-law/arizona-criminal-trespass-laws.html

Yeah, my bad. This is basically same as Texas law. There was probable cause for third degree trespassing, but not for disorderly conduct.

OK, police could detain him, but the arrest? Why didn't the manager simply wave his arms around, to make sure the guy paid attention?

I linked the AZ statutes and skimmed them. 13-1502 seems the most applicable:

A person commits criminal trespass in the third degree by:

1. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on any real property after a reasonable request to leave by a law enforcement officer, the owner or any other person having lawful control over such property, or reasonable notice prohibiting entry.


Pretty easy to argue the rider didn't "knowingly" remain, and his entrance was of course lawful.

I brought up the potential problems of the arrest. Initially he was told it was for trespassing, but did the manager want to press charges? I don’t know. I didn't hear them ask. Later he was told it was for disorderly conduct, in which the elements are not met.

And while it may have a reasonable chance as a defense in court, that the rider didn’t "knowingly" remain, I'd also argue there is still probable cause to arrest for third degree trespassing, based on the statement from the manager.

 

[bojangle]

That one cop seems like the type that probably talks about respect a lot.

Hey man, he's not the kind of person you want to talk about respect with.

 

[cheez]

The manager walked right up to him. If a manager walks right up to you and you're wearing a full face helmet, inside a store mind you, and playing music, and the manager is trying talk to you, and you though he was "just talking on a headset", you'd probably be well advised to take an extra step, like lifting the visor, looking at him, and making sure he wasn't talking to you. No, this seems like a convenient excuse. He's the one wearing a full face helmet with a reflective face shield in the store and appearing to intentionally ignore the manager. No common sense there.



Yeah, my bad. This is basically same as Texas law. There was probable cause for third degree trespassing, but not for disorderly conduct.



I brought up the potential problems of the arrest. Initially he was told it was for trespassing, but did the manager want to press charges? I don’t know. I didn't hear them ask. Later he was told it was for disorderly conduct, in which the elements are not met.

And while it may have a reasonable chance as a defense in court, that the rider didn’t "knowingly" remain, I'd also argue there is still probable cause to arrest for third degree trespassing, based on the statement from the manager.

The security camera footage is there before the bodycams. At no point does the manager approach the rider within his field of view and make ANY attempt to communicate. He loiters around behind him, he makes no effort to gain his attention through anything except voice communications. When the rider looks his way, frequently the guy is 10-15 feet away and, again, talking to the headset he's wearing.

I agree with the idea that store management has the right and responsibility to control who comes into their store and how they're attired; requesting removal of the helmet was not communicated to the rider at any point. During check-out- the rider's visor is up, is communicating with the checker, pays for the items- IDEAL time for the manager to walk up to the checkstand and say "sir, would you mind removing your helmet while you complete the payment transaction?"

The manager's failure to make a reasonable effort to inform the patron of a request- imagine if dude's deaf, and not "just" wearing a helmet, making this an ADA violation case- is the root of the issue here. Being too timid to actually confront a patron and communicate a demand of them does not place blame on the patron, especially when it's an edge case demand like this one.

 

[Brokenlink]

The dude was clearly clueless about his surroundings. It went bad from the second the cop tried to talk to him and he ignored the cop, then said "Hang on, I have music playing." That cop immediately took it as an insult instead of realizing dude was just completely not paying attention to his surroundings.

He did nothing wrong other than ignore a couple of people because he was dumb.

One time, my mom got pulled over. Cop followed her for over a mile with his lights on before hitting the siren. He asked her if she knew he was there. When she told him "no", he replied "Maybe if your mirror was pointed behind you instead of at your face, you would have seen me."

 

[bojangle]

The security camera footage is there before the bodycams. At no point does the manager approach the rider within his field of view and make ANY attempt to communicate. He loiters around behind him, he makes no effort to gain his attention through anything except voice communications. When the rider looks his way, frequently the guy is 10-15 feet away and, again, talking to the headset he's wearing.

I agree with the idea that store management has the right and responsibility to control who comes into their store and how they're attired; requesting removal of the helmet was not communicated to the rider at any point. During check-out- the rider's visor is up, is communicating with the checker, pays for the items- IDEAL time for the manager to walk up to the checkstand and say "sir, would you mind removing your helmet while you complete the payment transaction?"

The manager's failure to make a reasonable effort to inform the patron of a request- imagine if dude's deaf, and not "just" wearing a helmet, making this an ADA violation case- is the root of the issue here. Being too timid to actually confront a patron and communicate a demand of them does not place blame on the patron, especially when it's an edge case demand like this one.

I agree with most of this, except the bolded.

He's trying to talk to the guy, in his field of vision. And we know this because the guy admitted it on video. He admitted seeing the manager with a headset talking, and "assuming he was just talking on his headset".

Sorry, but if one is in a public store with face entirely covered, the average reasonable person will understand the inherent issues with that. The manager didn't create the situation, he did. It is on him to make sure he's not doing anything wrong. He failed. This whole entire minor incident of a misdemeanor arrest is the result of fails of all involved parties in several areas.


The way I've always operated with these types of calls is to put it on the reporting party. Find out if the manager wants to seek criminal prosecution for trespassing, and if they do, are they willing to do a private person arrest. If the answer is yes to both, the dude is still probably not going to jail. It will probably be a ticket. If I don't get two yeses, it will likely be handled like they were going to handle it initially, with an admonishment for trespassing, having him leave, and told not to return.

 

[bojangle]

The dude was clearly clueless about his surroundings. It went bad from the second the cop tried to talk to him and he ignored the cop, then said "Hang on, I have music playing." That cop immediately took it as an insult instead of realizing dude was just completely not paying attention to his surroundings.

He did nothing wrong other than ignore a couple of people because he was dumb.

One time, my mom got pulled over. Cop followed her for over a mile with his lights on before hitting the siren. He asked her if she knew he was there. When she told him "no", he replied "Maybe if your mirror was pointed behind you instead of at your face, you would have seen me."

Yeah, I think that had a lot to do with it. He created the situation. It's on him to mame sure that he pays more attention in public, or people might just get other ideas that are not necessarily unfounded.

 

[cheez]

I agree with most of this, except the bolded.

He's trying to talk to the guy, in his field of vision. And we know this because the guy admitted it on video. He admitted seeing the manager with a headset talking, and "assuming he was just talking on his headset".

Sorry, but if one is in a public store with face entirely covered, the average reasonable person will understand the inherent issues with that. The manager didn't create the situation, he did. It is on him to make sure he's not doing anything wrong. He failed. This whole entire minor incident of a misdemeanor arrest is the result of fails of all involved parties in several areas.


The way I've always operated with these types of calls is to put it on the reporting party. Find out if the manager wants to seek criminal prosecution for trespassing, and if they do, are they willing to do a private person arrest. If the answer is yes to both, the dude is still probably not going to jail. It will probably be a ticket. If I don't get two yeses, it will likely be handled like they were going to handle it initially, with an admonishment for trespassing, having him leave, and told not to return.

I walked into the garden department at Lowe's the other day without a mask on, by accident. I was running in to grab a thing I knew exactly where was, I was in a hurry, and I was moving quickly. As I passed the checkstand, the clerk said something, but between the plexiglas shield and my preoccupation with work stuff I didn't really hear him and dismissed it mentally as a greeting. I got to the back of the store and grabbed the 40lb bag of paver sand, and as I did so, felt my mask in the back pocket of my jeans. Put it on, and at checkout, apologized to the clerk for not having it on as I came in.

If I can be that inobservant of someone trying to get my attention as I walk towards and past them, without a helmet on, I can see how walking past that guy without giving him a second thought is possible. Especially if you're on the way to work and on a mission for the few things you need that day. I disagree that constitutes "approaching the rider and making an effort to communicate"- he's standing there as dude walks past, not waving at him to get his attention, not making any effort other than vocalizing to communicate. Especially considering as two frames later dude is past manager-man and walking into the store.

 

[TylerW]

Why? What would've been different?

The encounter likely would have been at gunpoint, and he may not have survived.

There's also a number of cases where cops have killed deaf people because the cops issued verbal commands out of eyeline and the deaf person didn't comply.

 

[thepretender]

The manager lied and head up your ass cop needs to find other work. Hope he gets a huge sum of money.

I've worn my helmet into Vons because I didn't have a mask got a thumbs up and two wows that's smart in a 5 min it took to get my stuff.

 

[bikeama]

I agree with most of this, except the bolded.

He's trying to talk to the guy, in his field of vision. And we know this because the guy admitted it on video. He admitted seeing the manager with a headset talking, and "assuming he was just talking on his headset".

Sorry, but if one is in a public store with face entirely covered, the average reasonable person will understand the inherent issues with that. The manager didn't create the situation, he did. It is on him to make sure he's not doing anything wrong. He failed. This whole entire minor incident of a misdemeanor arrest is the result of fails of all involved parties in several areas.


The way I've always operated with these types of calls is to put it on the reporting party. Find out if the manager wants to seek criminal prosecution for trespassing, and if they do, are they willing to do a private person arrest. If the answer is yes to both, the dude is still probably not going to jail. It will probably be a ticket. If I don't get two yeses, it will likely be handled like they were going to handle it initially, with an admonishment for trespassing, having him leave, and told not to return.

Lets look at time.

1:54 First time they are in the same picture. Rider is constantly walking, I don't think he ever thought the Manager was talking to him

1:58 Rider is looking down 4 seconds later. And passed the Manager, he was probably by the manager in 3 seconds.

2:02 The Manager stops following. So 8 seconds at the most the Manager tried to get the riders attention. Sorry the Manager did not make much of an attempt to get the riders attention.

Both pictures you posted are on the same 1:55 time stamp. Watch in real time and the Manager did not try to get the riders attention in my opinion.

 

[bojangle]

I walked into the garden department at Lowe's the other day without a mask on, by accident. I was running in to grab a thing I knew exactly where was, I was in a hurry, and I was moving quickly. As I passed the checkstand, the clerk said something, but between the plexiglas shield and my preoccupation with work stuff I didn't really hear him and dismissed it mentally as a greeting. I got to the back of the store and grabbed the 40lb bag of paver sand, and as I did so, felt my mask in the back pocket of my jeans. Put it on, and at checkout, apologized to the clerk for not having it on as I came in.

If I can be that inobservant of someone trying to get my attention as I walk towards and past them, without a helmet on, I can see how walking past that guy without giving him a second thought is possible. Especially if you're on the way to work and on a mission for the few things you need that day. I disagree that constitutes "approaching the rider and making an effort to communicate"- he's standing there as dude walks past, not waving at him to get his attention, not making any effort other than vocalizing to communicate. Especially considering as two frames later dude is past manager-man and walking into the store.

You wrote, "At no point does the manager approach the rider within his field of view and make ANY attempt to communicate." I posted pictures from the video that showed he approached the rider in his field of view and made an attempt to communicate".

We can argue about whether or not he made a sufficient attempt. But like many others, they might be scared and will jump to call police at the drop of a hat. The manager did seem to embellish his attempts to have the guy leave, at least according to the edited video, of which I skipped over some of the slow boring parts.

The encounter likely would have been at gunpoint, and he may not have survived.

There's also a number of cases where cops have killed deaf people because the cops issued verbal commands out of eyeline and the deaf person didn't comply.

Why is that? Describe what exactly, about that call would justify gunpoint. At what point did the guy pull out a weapon, run, or fight?

And how would they even know he was black? He was entirely covered with a full face helmet and mirrored visor. So seems to me you're making stuff up based on biased beliefs.

 

[cfives]

The dude's situational/peripheral awareness is shockingly non-existent, and/or he was acting like a dick. In a just world, compensation/punishment should be for lost wages, and the right to shop at Walmart again.

 

[bojangle]

The dude's situational/peripheral awareness is shockingly non-existent, and/or he was acting like a dick. In a just world, compensation/punishment should be for lost wages, and the right to shop at Walmart again.

He was acting like a dick. He admitted to seeing the manager, so it's not a lack of situational/peripheral awareness. He chose to disregard the manager and do whatever he wanted to do.

How the manager and police reacted to him is fairly typical. The guy created his own problems that day.

 

[cheez]

You wrote, "At no point does the manager approach the rider within his field of view and make ANY attempt to communicate." I posted pictures from the video that showed he approached the rider in his field of view and made an attempt to communicate".

We can argue about whether or not he made a sufficient attempt. But like many others, they might be scared and will jump to call police at the drop of a hat. The manager did seem to embellish his attempts to have the guy leave, at least according to the edited video, of which I skipped over some of the slow boring parts.



Why is that? Describe what exactly, about that call would justify gunpoint. At what point did the guy pull out a weapon, run, or fight?

And how would they even know he was black? He was entirely covered with a full face helmet and mirrored visor. So seems to me you're making stuff up based on biased beliefs.

I don't see an approach. I see the manager standing there talking while wearing a headset. I see him let the rider walk past without trying to get his attention.

I also can't tell that's the manager of the store until the end, when the police are talking to him. Can you?

Oh well. Walmart will pay some settlement money, and so will the taxpayers of the city. All because one timid manager made some false statements and some officers took him at his word rather than verify.

 

[msethhunter]

How the manager and police reacted to him is fairly typical. The guy created his own problems that day.

Which none of the officers made an attempi to deescalate, became belligerent and escalated. They could have gave him a simple trespass and sent him packing. His beef would have been with Walmart, not the PD. A LEO should never tell someone to pull their head out of their ass, ever. If anything, that creating a disturbance and being disorderly for no other reason than to flex some authority.

 

[nbean16]

Let's just say it would more than likely have ended much much worse even if the Black guy made every identical move to the White guy as the cop was clearly agro.

Just my gut, obviously can't prove it.

Yeah literally every black guy is killed in every encounter with police. Give me a break.

The encounter likely would have been at gunpoint, and he may not have survived.

There's also a number of cases where cops have killed deaf people because the cops issued verbal commands out of eyeline and the deaf person didn't comply.

Yeah this is why 30,000 black people are killed per day by police. I'm gonna blow your mind but thousands of black people in this country are arrested daily without being killed. Many of them resisting. If every encounter ended with their death there would be no black people left in this country. These posts are getting really dumb.

 

[Shaggy]

Which none of the officers made an attempi to deescalate, became belligerent and escalated. They could have gave him a simple trespass and sent him packing. His beef would have been with Walmart, not the PD. A LEO should never tell someone to pull their head out of their ass, ever. If anything, that creating a disturbance and being disorderly for no other reason than to flex some authority.

Cops aren’t waiters in the customer service industry. Sometimes police have to use forceful language to convey a point or gain compliance. Don’t be naive.

 

[Shaggy]

Also, title should be “Arrested for failure to leave Walmart upon request by manager.”

 

[ctwo]

Kind of a big nothing burger, really.

Totally! White privilege on display here, you can clearly see it. The white guy should be thanking the cops for spending the time to talk to him and not shooting him in the back.

The manager walked right up to him. If a manager walks right up to you and you're wearing a full face helmet, inside a store mind you, and playing music, and the manager is trying talk to you, and you though he was "just talking on a headset", you'd probably be well advised to take an extra step, like lifting the visor, looking at him, and making sure he wasn't talking to you.

WTF? You should get on your hands and knees because a Walmart manager is your fucking god. Don't go fucking around with authority. This is Walmart, man. And don't even think for a second that you'd get away with that in a 7-Eleven.

Why is that? Describe what exactly, about that call would justify gunpoint.

Well, duh, there is no justification for lethal force because the guy ain't black.

He was acting like a dick. He admitted to seeing the manager, so it's not a lack of situational/peripheral awareness. He chose to disregard the manager and do whatever he wanted to do.

How the manager and police reacted to him is fairly typical. The guy created his own problems that day.

Totally agree. Everyone should bend the fuck over on command of a Walmart manager. You walk into their store and you are their bitch.

Cops aren’t waiters in the customer service industry. Sometimes police have to use forceful language to convey a point or gain compliance. Don’t be naive.

The cops should have just pulled out their batons and started whailing at the sight of this helmeted man inside a Walmart store. White privileged bastid got away with utter defiance of his superior gods. Now he'll probably get a payday too.

When will consumers learn their place in this world?