BART Strike Thread

[sanjuro]

40-hour work week? Thank unions
Anti-child labor laws? Thank unions
Workplace safety regs? Thank Unions
An eight hour workday
A five day work week
Paid sick days, vacation days, and holidays
Family and medical leave
Health, life, and disability insurance
A pension
Safe and healthy working conditions
Proper job training

Union, union, union, union union.

I agree with all of this, but let me ask this: when were all of these benefits commonplace for workers? 1950's, 60's? That is 50 years ago.

If unions started to decline, would these benefits disappear? Certainly not in the near future, possibly never.

On the other hand, there is a certain level of corruption and crime in unions, and there is a lot of examples how unions are bad for business.

Finally, municipal union strength, is based around partnership with government. Imagine if the BART union decides to maintain the strike for a month. Do you think any elected official will stay elected if they side with BART?

 

[Brokenlink]

If BART strikes, they will have lost one customer for life.

 

[I'm OaklandLion]

what does a BART train operator or booth collector make?

 

[sanjuro]

If BART strikes, they will have lost one customer for life.

Right.

$100 says the next time you get drunk at Gordon Biersch, you won't be headed down to the AC Transit station for the next bus across bridge.

 

[intortus]

If BART strikes, they will have lost one customer for life.

They lost me on most commutes when they started shooting passengers (also, motorcycle is faster and more fun). A strike would just be icing on the cake.

 

[achung123]

I never see any union in the high tech industry or in professional fields - any yet they have a lot higher pay salary and benefit. Most people have to work overtime without pay anyway - but why there isn't any union to "protect" them? The bottom line is all about supply and demand - a free market system will able to self-adjust and keep the our country competitive to other econ systems around the world. Think about why JP cars are far better made and cheaper than American cars? Think about why all the manufacturing job in the US have lesser and lesser room to grow? Think about why we have to out-souse the basic level job to other countries? Union in fact able to protect the workers' rights, but the union also slow down the grow of our country... so the bottom line is - work your ass off in school, and make sure each of us stay competitive!

 

[Gabe]

I agree with all of this, but let me ask this: when were all of these benefits commonplace for workers? 1950's, 60's? That is 50 years ago.

If unions started to decline, would these benefits disappear? Certainly not in the near future, possibly never.

On the other hand, there is a certain level of corruption and crime in unions, and there is a lot of examples how unions are bad for business.

Finally, municipal union strength, is based around partnership with government. Imagine if the BART union decides to maintain the strike for a month. Do you think any elected official will stay elected if they side with BART?

Crap! You sucked me back in!

The modern struggle of organized labor is a continuum from the 1880s right up to 20 minutes ago. It's a constant battle, played out in Washington DC and 50 state capitols between armies of very-well-paid industry and ideological lobbyists on one side and not-so-well-paid labor and human rights lobbyists and organizers on the other. If the unions declared victory and disappeared tomorrow, steady diminishment of worker's rights would begin the day after tomorrow and you would not like the result, I guarantee it.

Captial wants labor to be free, or as close to free as possible, and labor wants a living wage and decent conditions for workers. So who's greedy and lazy? That there is corruption in the system is because it's a system staffed by human beings. Corruption is, I would argue, far worse in the corporate boardrooms and chambers of government.

As for this guy:

I never see any union in the high tech industry or in professional fields - any yet they have a lot higher pay salary and benefit. Most people have to work overtime without pay anyway - but why there isn't any union to "protect" them?

Because those are new industries that take advantage of overseas labor to ensure unions will never be a problem. It's difficult to organize managerial/creative/technical people, and in fact the US Labor laws don't really recognize those worker's rights to organize.

The bottom line is all about supply and demand - a free market system will able to self-adjust and keep the our country competitive to other econ systems around the world.

That's what scares me. What will our country look like if we worked for Bangladeshi wages? I'd rather live in Bangladesh.

Think about why JP cars are far better made and cheaper than American cars?

Um, the Japanese work force is far more unionized than ours, as are the German, French and Italian's. Efficency comes from management, not labor. Labor just does what it's told persuant to a contract protecting working conditions.

Think about why all the manufacturing job in the US have lesser and lesser room to grow? Think about why we have to out-souse the basic level job to other countries? Union in fact able to protect the workers' rights, but the union also slow down the grow of our country...

We had the most prosperity for American workers between 1940 and 1970, the years of the highest wages (adjusted for inflation) and greatest union membership. Did the economy grow at the greatest rate during those times? Maybe, or maybe not, but just because the economy is growing doesn't mean that everybody benefits. The last 30 years have seen stagnation of wages for all but the top 10 percent of earners. The rising tide floats all boats, but if you don't have a boat you just drown.

so the bottom line is - work your ass off in school, and make sure each of us stay competitive!

No matter how many cute emoticons you use, you can't convince me that being competitive is the only thing you need. There are motojournalists in India who can write as well as me, even in English. But is it fair that they are happy to work for $2 an hour? How am I supposed to compete?

Every year the American worker gets more and more efficient, working more hours for less pay and fewer benefits. The sad thing is that so many of them have been either disillusioned or brainwashed, or crushed by distractions and apathy into thinking they will someday be a billionaire if they buy into the mythology that if they work harder they will be rich.

 

[SurfAwave69]

TRAIN OPERATOR WAGE EXAMPLE:

_____________________________Base Pay__Overtime___Other Pay_____Total

Train Operator R-Line Rail Operations $73,820 $26,118 $8,312 $108,250

BOOTH ATTENDANT:

Station Agent L-Line Station Operations $61,335 $1,994 $6,118 $69,447

 

[Gabe]

TRAIN OPERATER WAGE EXAMPLE:

________________________________Base Pay__Overtime___Other Pay_____Total

Train Operator R-Line Rail Operations $73,820 $26,118 $8,312 $108,250

BOOTH ATTENDANT:

Station Agent L-Line Station Operations $61,335 $1,994 $6,118 $69,447

Look, I am cans google too:

 

[SurfAwave69]

Look, I am cans google too:

No googling involved, slick.

Public record...

From the rates I've been researching, OT seems to be very high.

 

[Gabe]

No googling involved, slick.

Public record...

So what are you trying to say? That BART workers should just take what they can get, that they get paid too much? Have you ever worked for BART?

BART is subsidized because it's expensive to run and can't compete against private cars, which get MASSIVE public subsidies and cost externalizations we choose not to see. You could reduce BART's payroll to $1 a year and it would still need subsidy.

OT is probably high because of cost-cutting hiring freezes...I don't know that, just a guess.

 

[SurfAwave69]

Nah, no judgment from me. Since it's a matter of public record, and I have the stats on hand, thought it would be a good addition to this thread.

 

[EastBayDave]

what does a BART train operator or booth collector make?

I heard the average was ~$102K

absolute sillyness....

 

[EastBayDave]

One thing I wanted to add, BART's last strike lasted 6 working days, & the traffic & freeways/bridges were nightmares. I ened up taking a few sick/vacation days (to my bosses approval/as well w/many of my co-workers.) It was madness; I even saw lots of people on the twisties as alternatives to plugged freeways. Lunatic's too, even on Redwood/Pinehurst.

I basically took the week off, an my boss went to Hawaii for hte week. It was slow so a skeleton crew was fine. I was damn glad the strike ended quickly. Fire them all & hire new non-union workers that need jobs. Throw out the union rich azzes...they make far far to much money.

 

[achung123]

Fire them all & hire new non-union workers that need jobs. Throw out the union rich azzes...they make far far to much money.

 

[Bonzo]

Well with NUMMI about to get shut down by the colapse of GM ... I think there are workers that can work on cars that can actually turn ... how about another 4500 people loosing their jobs.

Now the only reason unions were powerful in the day because they were linked to other unions. UAW, Steelworkers, Painters, Teamsters, etc. They would all shut down and respect the strike of the other Union.

Now you have right to work in some states that works against unions. Scabs I guess, But if I didn't have a job here in the Bay, I would apply today for the Scab job and start on Monday morning and get that box moving.

 

[vaara]

Every year the American worker gets more and more efficient, working more hours for less pay and fewer benefits. The sad thing is that so many of them have been either disillusioned or brainwashed, or crushed by distractions and apathy into thinking they will someday be a billionaire if they buy into the mythology that if they work harder they will be rich.

+eleventy billion.

I'm not unionized, nor have I ever been, but I don't begrudge BART drivers or anyone else the right to a decent living.

The class envy is strong in this thread. Ironic, innit?

 

[Ozymandias]

Ok, I was avoiding this thread just because... well... because. But I saw the posts about Unions and how some think they are useful and others (rightly so) think they have outlived their usefulness.

I have been a member of both the UAW and the Teamsters. Both cost me my job in one way or another. They sucked money out of my paycheck every week and did NOTHING in return except the above mention job losing. Even when I was "in trouble" for some stupid thing or another they never sent a steward to defend me. I have even been the benefit of a union once by the plant shutting down and moving 800 miles south to go where there was non-union workers.

Unions where GREAT back in the late 1800s and early 1900s but now due to the work of said unions the laws are already on the books to give the workers' the rights they need. Where were the unions when the state of CA was able to take away time and a half for anyone making over ... $75k I think? Due to that I worked 30 hours overtime one week and only brought home 30% more pay.

Right now, what BALLS do the BART workers have? People are taking pay cuts just to keep working. We have the highest unemployment in over 50 years and that's not including the undocumented unemployed. We have people that are losing their homes. The state is already operating at a serious loss due to sooo many things not the least of which is the unemployment and they aren't willing to do their part?! I was promised without a doubt that I would get a raise in April '09 when I was hired on in early 2008, am I bitching about the fact I haven't gotten it? Hell no. Why? Because I am working and my bills are getting paid. Couple that with the fact that these people are charged with getting hundreds of thousands of people to work that are already in a tight bind? Fuck any and all BART workers in the ass with a big ugly green puss oozing donkey dick. I hope it goes in far enough they choke on it.

And don't worry, I won't hold back!

 

[Gixxergirl1000]

Slack shall be "cut" for you then.

Thanks!

You guys can bash unions all you want, but talkj to anybody with a job worth having, and odds are they're union, even though union jobs are now something like 10% of the labor market.

Personally, I couldn't do what I do without my wife's SEIU-protected job with the SF public library. And if you think she's too stupid and lazy to get a "real" job let me just say, .

40-hour work week? Thank unions
Anti-child labor laws? Thank unions
Workplace safety regs? Thank Unions
An eight hour workday
A five day work week
Paid sick days, vacation days, and holidays
Family and medical leave
Health, life, and disability insurance
A pension
Safe and healthy working conditions
Proper job training

Union, union, union, union union.

Oh, but now we don't need them anymore? Working people's wages are as low as they've been since the 1960s, health benefits are being slashed, and the minimum wage, even at $7.25 an hour, is a joke. If you think that management and capital would let us keep these things, you are a sucker. We'd all be making $1.25 an hour in a second. You think Nike cares if their workers in China barely make enough money to live on and can only dream of buying its shitty sneakers?

Unions may be imperfect but they are the ONLY thing protecting the great mass of workers from hideous exploitation a la China, India, etc. Think about that the next time you say "unions have outlived their usefullness."

Oh, and before somebody jumps into my shit for getting political on this thread, jump on GsxrGirl:



May I respectfully submit that you know about as much about labor relations as Var knows about bedding in brakes?

Why jump my shit, Gabe? I'm as entitled to my opinion as you are yours. Having a Human Resources background, I'm aware of what the labor laws are. The laws are in place to protect the workers. FYI- I've managed to make a living WITHOUT a union carrying my ass- because I WENT TO COLLEGE (paid for it myself, BTW), got an education, got JOB SKILLS. I made an effort to get an education and acquire job skills- and I've done it without ever having a union's protection.
Personally, I think it's ludicrous to pay anyone doing such unskilled labor the types of salaries the BART employees are getting. Hey- let's reward lack of education, and support professional lethargy.

Look, I am cans google too:

Yeah- and I guarantee you every one of those guys busted his ass to get a college education. They EARNED those salaries. Wish I were that smart.

 

[vaara]

Yeah- and I guarantee you every one of those guys busted his ass to get a college education. They EARNED those salaries. Wish I were that smart.

Do you really think the CEO of John Deere is 100+ times smarter than you are? I'm sure that's not true.

(disclaimer: I don't mean to jump to conclusions about your salary level, but the median salary in the Bay Area is around $70K, which means those CEOs earn 100-300 times more than the average working stiff. And by siding with management against labor in this dispute, you seem to be saying that's not enough. )