• There has been a recent cluster of spammers accessing BARFer accounts and posting spam. To safeguard your account, please consider changing your password. It would be even better to take the additional step of enabling 2 Factor Authentication (2FA) on your BARF account. Read more here.

Carbon Speed Batteries?

Hooli

Bonafide
Joined
Feb 10, 2002
Location
The Far East
Moto(s)
Oh yes.
Name
El Jefe
Heard about these over on 1000rr.net. Good for trackdays/racing, how about street use?

weight_comparo.jpg


Some specs:

4-cell specs:
Cranking amps: 120 amps
Capacity: 2.6 amp-hours
Weight: 0.7 lbs
Dimensions: 4 x 2.8 x 1"
Max charge rate: 10 amps

8-cell specs:
Cranking amps: 240 amps
Capacity: 5.2 amp-hours
Weight: 1.4 lbs
Dimensions: 4 x 2.8 x 2"
Max charge rate: 10 amps
 
this is the second time i've seen a company selling these things. Last company never actually answered my email regarding how they handle low (low 40's) temperatures. basically told me to pay over $300 and try for myself, no refunds of course.
 
These guys have been selling similar batteries for a while, too: http://www.motowheels.com/italian/m...es&vendoridtoDisplay=82|SpeedCell&collection=

Seems the CarbonSpeed may be a better deal right now, especially for the smaller battery... $160 vs. $120, with the cheaper one even having slightly larger capacity, 2.3Ah vs. 2.6Ah.

I'm looking forward to getting one should my current battery kick the bucket. Of course, we can all retire our trickle chargers then.
 
A Yuasa YTZ7S which fits an 08 1000RR is rated at 130 CCA. I note that these small batteries are rated at a CA of 120 and 240. Problem is, you can't compare the two. Can you get a CCA rating from the manufacturer? That way you can make a proper comparison.

FYI: CA ratings are made at 32 degrees F. CCA ratings are made at 0 degrees F. That's a big difference.

Also, see this from Wikipedia:

Disadvantages of traditional Li-ion technology
Shelf life
A disadvantage of lithium-ion cells lies in their relatively poor cycle life: upon every (re)charge, deposits form inside the electrolyte that inhibit lithium ion transport, resulting in the capacity of the cell to diminish. The increase in internal resistance affects the cell's ability to deliver current, thus the problem is more pronounced in high-current than low-current applications. The increasing capacity hit means that a full charge in an older battery will not last as long as one in a new battery (although the charging time required decreases proportionally, as well).
Also, high charge levels and elevated temperatures (whether resulting from charging or being ambient) hasten permanent capacity loss for lithium-ion batteries.[32][33] The heat generated during a charge cycle is caused by the traditional carbon anode, which has been replaced with good results by lithium titanate. Lithium titanate has been experimentally shown to drastically reduce the degenerative effects associated with charging, including expansion and other factors.[34] See "Improvements of lithium-ion technology" below.
At a 100% charge level, a typical Li-ion laptop battery that is full most of the time at 25 °C or 77 °F will irreversibly lose approximately 20% capacity per year. However, a battery in a poorly ventilated laptop may be subject to a prolonged exposure to much higher temperatures, which will significantly shorten its life. Different storage temperatures produce different loss results: 6% loss at 0 °C (32 °F), 20% at 25 °C (77 °F), and 35% at 40 °C (104 °F). When stored at 40%–60% charge level, the capacity loss is reduced to 2%, 4%, 15% at 0, 25 and 40 degrees Celsius respectively.[


Bottom line is that I'm thinking I don't have enough information to say how'd they work on the street. If I had to guess, I'd say the four cell version really isn't sufficient for street use where the starter is getting used all the time. And the 8 cell version, even if it is up to the task, is pricey just to reduce bike weight by 4.5 lbs. On the street, you'll never notice the difference. And on the track, you'd have to be a top AMA rider to notice the difference.

Money better spent elsewhere??
 
Bottom line is that I'm thinking I don't have enough information to say how'd they work on the street. If I had to guess, I'd say the four cell version really isn't sufficient for street use where the starter is getting used all the time. And the 8 cell version, even if it is up to the task, is pricey just to reduce bike weight by 4.5 lbs. On the street, you'll never notice the difference. And on the track, you'd have to be a top AMA rider to notice the difference.

Money better spent elsewhere??

Yeah, if you really need the larger version even for a middleweight bike, it's probably not worth it.

It should be noted that the LiIon batteries in all of those packs are not the same as the 'normal' LiIon batteries such as in laptops and cell phones, but rather Lithium iron phosphate.
From Wikipedia:

While LiFePO4 cells have lower voltage and energy density than normal, LiCoO2 Li-ion cells, this disadvantage is offset over time by the slower rate of capacity loss (aka greater calendar-life) of LiFePO4 when compared with other lithium-ion battery chemistries (such as LiCoO2 "cobalt" or LiMn2O4 "manganese spinel" based Lithium-ion polymer batteries or Lithium-ion batteries).[7][8] For example:

* After one year of use, a LiFePO4 cell typically has approximately the same energy density as a normal, LiCoO2 Li-ion cell.
* Beyond one year of use, a LiFePO4 cell is likely to have higher energy density than a normal, LiCoO2 Li-ion cell due to the differences in their respective calendar-lives.

Or in other words, they have less capacity than traditional LiIon, but don't lose it as fast. Considering pretty much all laptops I've ever owned had a battery that was almost toast after 2 years or so, that sounds like a good thing. Also, supposedly they can't explode or catch fire... not a bad thing on a bike. :thumbup
 
it's CCA I'm waiting for.

Of note these are LiFe batteries not Li-ion, so there's a significant chemistry difference as far as handling discharge. Most new cordless tool batteries are LiFe, using the A123 cells

course it all means exactly squat if the CCA isn't any good. the Yasa AGM in my FJR won't start the bike if it sits for more than two days and night temps drop to 40 or below. At cold-soaks of 35 or so, it's a crap shoot whether it will start the next morning no matter how long I ran the day before.

A Yuasa YTZ7S which fits an 08 1000RR is rated at 130 CCA. I note that these small batteries are rated at a CA of 120 and 240. Problem is, you can't compare the two. Can you get a CCA rating from the manufacturer? That way you can make a proper comparison.

FYI: CA ratings are made at 32 degrees F. CCA ratings are made at 0 degrees F. That's a big difference.

Also, see this from Wikipedia:

Disadvantages of traditional Li-ion technology
Shelf life
A disadvantage of lithium-ion cells lies in their relatively poor cycle life: upon every (re)charge, deposits form inside the electrolyte that inhibit lithium ion transport, resulting in the capacity of the cell to diminish. The increase in internal resistance affects the cell's ability to deliver current, thus the problem is more pronounced in high-current than low-current applications. The increasing capacity hit means that a full charge in an older battery will not last as long as one in a new battery (although the charging time required decreases proportionally, as well).
Also, high charge levels and elevated temperatures (whether resulting from charging or being ambient) hasten permanent capacity loss for lithium-ion batteries.[32][33] The heat generated during a charge cycle is caused by the traditional carbon anode, which has been replaced with good results by lithium titanate. Lithium titanate has been experimentally shown to drastically reduce the degenerative effects associated with charging, including expansion and other factors.[34] See "Improvements of lithium-ion technology" below.
At a 100% charge level, a typical Li-ion laptop battery that is full most of the time at 25 °C or 77 °F will irreversibly lose approximately 20% capacity per year. However, a battery in a poorly ventilated laptop may be subject to a prolonged exposure to much higher temperatures, which will significantly shorten its life. Different storage temperatures produce different loss results: 6% loss at 0 °C (32 °F), 20% at 25 °C (77 °F), and 35% at 40 °C (104 °F). When stored at 40%–60% charge level, the capacity loss is reduced to 2%, 4%, 15% at 0, 25 and 40 degrees Celsius respectively.[


Bottom line is that I'm thinking I don't have enough information to say how'd they work on the street. If I had to guess, I'd say the four cell version really isn't sufficient for street use where the starter is getting used all the time. And the 8 cell version, even if it is up to the task, is pricey just to reduce bike weight by 4.5 lbs. On the street, you'll never notice the difference. And on the track, you'd have to be a top AMA rider to notice the difference.

Money better spent elsewhere??
 
I did some quick checking on some Interstate batteries that list both CA and CCA ratings. I appears that the CCA rating is about 20 to 25 percent lower than the CA rating. So, if you take the 4 cell Carbonspeed battery of 120 CA, it would perhaps be in the range of 90 to 96 CCA. For the 8 cell version, that might be in the range of 180 to 192 CCA. If my estimates hold true, I'd say the 4 cell version will be a disappointment and the 8 cell version is pricey.
 
I googled around some more. The A123 cells actually have pretty good specs:

http://a123systems.textdriven.com/product/pdf/1/ANR26650M1A_Datasheet_APRIL_2009.pdf

According to the graphs in that spec sheet, the voltage doesn't decrease all that much at 0°C and -20°C (compared to room temp at 25°C).

They also claim:
Operating temperature range -30°C to +60°C
Storage temperature range -50°C to +60°C

Of course, the +60°C means you shouldn't put the battery anywhere near the motor... maybe into the trunk?
 
Not all of these batteries are comparible. A123 makes a wide variety of batteries. The ones that are included in the SPEEDCELL pack (from motowheels here in CA) are very high quality and are made/assembled in the US.

I haven't read up on the Carboncell ones yet.

I have a Supersport pack SPEEDCELL that I'm trying to use in my vintage bikes. It should be able to crank over a 600-4 or a 500 and under Twin if memory serves. Motowheels says they'll trade up you battery if the one you get won't turn over you bike.

I'll post up more finding as I run them in my vintage bikes for a while. I've got quick click connectors so that I have 1 battery and can use it on many bikes.

A big plus for me is the materials in these batteries is much better for the environment that the old lead batteries from my research.
 
I don't know why someone would spend so much on one of these packs... a123 cells are readily available from lots of sources these days. They're basically 4 of the 26650 cells in series to bring up the voltage, then paralleled for the 8 cell.

http://www.a123systems.com/a123/products

What's disturbing is that although they handle overcharging and overdrawing much better than lithium ion and polymer cells, they still require proper charging circuitry, which those packs don't seem to include (could be wrong?). Overcharging means a relatively quick death to even lithium phosphate cells. For racing where every bit of weight counts, I can see these being quite worth the cost of the occasional replacement, but for street use where we can ride 10+ hours, I don't think they're there yet without at least some type of overcharge protection circuitry.
 
Hmmm....I wonder if they supply the batteries in my DeWalt nano lithium ion battery pack for my drill?

The points about charging systems are good ones. Different types of batteries have different charging system requirements. And often, one isn't compatible with the other. Bikes, of course, are designed for lead acid batteries and their various permutations. I'm not sure using such a charging system on a non-lead acid battery would be OK. In the long run, at any rate. Certainly, there are other battery types out there that would do the job in a bike or car. In fact, certain high-end Porsches use LI batteries. But unless there's some overwhelmingly compelling reason to use them, sticking with lead acid batteries is the practical and most cost effective solution.
 
please let us know if you do a cold overnight test. Can't seem to get the companies selling these to actually do so with their products.

as far as overcharging issues, wouldn't a modern voltage regulator handle this already? It already serves to keep lead batts from boiling over.

Not all of these batteries are comparible. A123 makes a wide variety of batteries. The ones that are included in the SPEEDCELL pack (from motowheels here in CA) are very high quality and are made/assembled in the US.

I haven't read up on the Carboncell ones yet.

I have a Supersport pack SPEEDCELL that I'm trying to use in my vintage bikes. It should be able to crank over a 600-4 or a 500 and under Twin if memory serves. Motowheels says they'll trade up you battery if the one you get won't turn over you bike.

I'll post up more finding as I run them in my vintage bikes for a while. I've got quick click connectors so that I have 1 battery and can use it on many bikes.

A big plus for me is the materials in these batteries is much better for the environment that the old lead batteries from my research.
 
Last edited:
I don't know why someone would spend so much on one of these packs... a123 cells are readily available from lots of sources these days. They're basically 4 of the 26650 cells in series to bring up the voltage, then paralleled for the 8 cell.

http://www.a123systems.com/a123/products

What's disturbing is that although they handle overcharging and overdrawing much better than lithium ion and polymer cells, they still require proper charging circuitry, which those packs don't seem to include (could be wrong?). Overcharging means a relatively quick death to even lithium phosphate cells. For racing where every bit of weight counts, I can see these being quite worth the cost of the occasional replacement, but for street use where we can ride 10+ hours, I don't think they're there yet without at least some type of overcharge protection circuitry.

The Speedcell batteries have a proprietary balancing system built in. This appears to be something that was developed for DoD according to some sources (i forget some of my research).

I considered putting together my own A123 cell, but I don't fully understand how to wire the board for the balancing. I figured I would give this a shot. If this does not work I will most likely try putting together my own balanced A123s, but I would prefer to avoid this step on these bikes.

please let us know if you do a cold overnight test. Can't seem to get the companies selling these to actually do so with their products.

as far as overcharging issues, wouldn't a modern voltage regulator handle this already? It already serves to keep lead batts from boiling over.

I don't know if I would be the best candidate for the cold overnight testing. I'm running this on two bikes at the moment, a 1969 Honda CL350 and a 1969 Suzuki T500. The T500 is kickstart only, and the Honda is kickstart/starter, but my rearsets are in the way of the kickstart. I've strapped everything in and had trouble starting the Honda with the Speedcell. I however, do not have a 12ah 12v battery to swap in to see if the issue is with the bike/starter or with the Speedcell pack output. I'm suspicious of the starter as I get varied results on starter button push.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top