CCW In Vehicle Question

[bergmen]

I have been looking for answers for this question on carry forums and other appropriate places but have found no definitive answers.

I have a valid California CCW and prefer to carry in the vehicle and not on person at times (for various reasons). I have the weapon (hot, unlocked and concealed) in a place that is not easily accessed by others but is quick and easy for me if necessary. I switch to concealed carry on person if need be (flat tire, out of gas, stranded and have to hike to town because I'm out of cell range, etc.). If I leave the vehicle I secure said weapon in an internal locked location.

I can find no definitive definition or restriction in the PC on how I can legally carry concealed, whether it must be on person at all times or whether it is legal to be in my vehicle (hot, unlocked but still concealed).

CRPA (California Rifle and Pistol Association) suggests in articles related to concealed carry that it is okay to do so.

In the latest issue of The Firing Line, it states in the article on page 9: "...CCW's, which allow a citizen to carry a loaded firearm under a jacket or in a purse or glove compartment."

Any LEO clarification on this?

JMHO

Dan

 

[fawndog]

You have a CCW, and you don't know.

 

[slowpoke]

+1

 

[bojangle]

+2

Concealed is concealed, right?

 

[bergmen]

You have a CCW, and you don't know.

It is not written in the PC, not discussed in the class, no official definition anywhere I can find. I've asked on appropriate forums with no response.

I could just ignore this and assume I'm legal with what I'm doing or be responsible and ask the Law Enforcement personnel here.

There many questions that CCW holders have, for many different circumstances and conditions that are not as easily discernable as one might think. This has a lot to do with the idiotic state of the gun laws in California as well as many undefined arenas with regards to concealed carry within this state.

Here's another good one for you. I live in an area that includes many Native American lands (Rancherias as well as Reservations). Is my CCW good there?

Not answered anywhere in any law that I can find. I found the answer by asking LEO's. I do have the answer. You tell me what it is.

JMHO

Dan

 

[bergmen]

+2

Concealed is concealed, right?

So I can hide my hot weapon in a shopping bag and leave it on a fence post and walk off and be legal? Do I have to be within a certain distance? Be in complete command of this weapon at all times? And how is that specified by law?

There is no discernable definition of carry concealed weapon with allowable or disallowable circumstances that guide me in staying legal in California. In a purse? Okay from what I hear, not specified in the law. Concealed in my backpack? Still not specified. If it is okay in my backpack and I take it off and set it down, not attached to my person, still legal? Where are the boundaries?

Just want to be clear, legal and safe.

JMHO

Dan

 

[bojangle]

Here's another good one for you. I live in an area that includes many Native American lands (Rancherias as well as Reservations). Is my CCW good there?

Not answered anywhere in any law that I can find. I found the answer by asking LEO's. I do have the answer. You tell me what it is.

JMHO

Dan

Ok, you got me on that one. Without doing research, I don't know, but off the top of my head I would say I don't think it is legal since Native American lands are federal property (my understanding) and they are governed by their own laws.

So I can hide my hot weapon in a shopping bag and leave it on a fence post and walk off and be legal? Do I have to be within a certain distance? Be in complete command of this weapon at all times? And how is that specified by law?

There is no discernable definition of carry concealed weapon with allowable or disallowable circumstances that guide me in staying legal in California. In a purse? Okay from what I hear, not specified in the law. Concealed in my backpack? Still not specified. If it is okay in my backpack and I take it off and set it down, not attached to my person, still legal? Where are the boundaries?

Just want to be clear, legal and safe.

JMHO

Dan

It has to be under your immediate control. A person without CCW needs to have a concealed firearm in a vehicle unloaded and locked in the trunk or locked container, or else they are in violation of 12025(a) P.C. and/or 12031(a) P.C. If you have a CCW, you are exempted.

If you leave a firearm in a bag and walk away from it, it is no longer concealed under you immediate control. If a child got a hold of the gun and injured or killed someone, you would be on the hook for criminal and civil liability charges.

 

[bojangle]

Oh yeah, and if you are holding the bag or backpack that a firearm is concealed in, it is no different under the law than if it was concealed in a pants holster, leg holster, pocket, whatever.

 

[bergmen]

Ok, you got me on that one. Without doing research, I don't know, but off the top of my head I would say I don't think it is legal since Native American lands are federal property (my understanding) and they are governed by their own laws.

It has to be under your immediate control. A person without CCW needs to have a concealed firearm in a vehicle unloaded and locked in the trunk or locked container, or else they are in violation of 12025(a) P.C. and/or 12031(a) P.C. If you have a CCW, you are exempted.

If you leave a firearm in a bag and walk away from it, it is no longer concealed under you immediate control. If a child got a hold of the gun and injured or killed someone, you would be on the hook for criminal and civil liability charges.

As far as Native American Lands, I said I had the answer but as I look back at my notes, that is not entirely correct.

I asked this specific question at our last CCW refresher course directly to the DA who was giving the course (Norm Vroman). He indicated that he knew of no law or agreement between sovereign reservation territories and California regarding CCW, but that it was not likely to be recognized. He recommended not carrying while on their property. This is somewhat tough to do up here, one crosses through these lands on a regular basis.

Thanks for pointing out 12025, that answers my question regarding carrying in vehicles perfectly. I had not seen that one before, my bad. Also, it is clear that a concealed weapon must be in my direct control at all times, thanks much for your clarification on this point.

Just want to be safe and legal here. Thanks again for your help on this, very helpful.

JMHO

Dan

 

[squidhunter]

As far as Native American Lands, I said I had the answer but as I look back at my notes, that is not entirely correct.

I asked this specific question at our last CCW refresher course directly to the DA who was giving the course (Norm Vroman). He indicated that he knew of no law or agreement between sovereign reservation territories and California regarding CCW, but that it was not likely to be recognized. He recommended not carrying while on their property. This is somewhat tough to do up here, one crosses through these lands on a regular basis.

Considering that each reservation is governed by it's own laws, I'd directly contact the reservation police or their version of DA office and ask them what their laws are regarding carrying on their land.

 

[bergmen]

Considering that each reservation is governed by it's own laws, I'd directly contact the reservation police or their version of DA office and ask them what their laws are regarding carrying on their land.

That is a good point.

On a broader scale I think I will contact CRPA (California Rifle and Pistol Association) and see if they can be of assistance in determining an official position by all California tribes so that there will be a documented, stated response regarding this. This is a good job for the association and they have the proper personnel on staff to deal with inquiries of this sort in more of an official capacity.

JMHO

Dan

 

[masameet]

Interestingly I was looking at an Arizona site on CCW there. That site said it's 50/50 for the Indian lands there regarding CCW. It also stressed to check with the Indian tribal police at whichever reservation you're planning to travel to/through/in, etc.

Still I lifted the following quote from this site:

The flip side is that any federally or state maintained roadways through the reservation are exempt, and anyone may continue to carry legally as long as they don't stop.

Another member offered this interesting tidbit:

The reservation legal system pertains to tribal members only. Disputes with non-members are handled through the local county sheriff or FBI. Once the FBI of local law enforcement gets involved you are talking about infractions of county, state, or federal laws and ordinances.

One of our major problems is access to reservation residents to collect money owed on claims that have been paid. The county can't enforce aorrders on the reservation, and the reservation police will not. The only luck we have is when both parties to the acciednt are enrolled members, then we can get into tribal court and get enforcement of liens.

Source: Ibid.

So are you some kinda bounty hunter and planning to roust some Indian scofflaw on the res?

 

[bergmen]

Interestingly I was looking at an Arizona site on CCW there. That site said it's 50/50 for the Indian lands there regarding CCW. It also stressed to check with the Indian tribal police at whichever reservation you're planning to travel to/through/in, etc.

Still I lifted the following quote from this site:

Another member offered this interesting tidbit:

Source: Ibid.

So are you some kinda bounty hunter and planning to roust some Indian scofflaw on the res?

Wow, thanks for this great information (and links)!

As for myself, I travel through a couple of Rancherias on my way to pick up or drop off my kids to see their Mom (Highway 20 east from 101 over north Clear Lake). I stay on the state maintained highway at all times. Lake County has spotty cell coverage and I ALWAYS carry in-vehicle while going through areas with spotty coverage in case I get stranded for whatever reason.

As for my wife, she is a home school teacher, has her CCW as well and travels to (or through) various reservation lands to visit students one-on-one. She carries in-vehicle and not on-person so she should be cool.

I am very insistant on my wife carrying at all appropriate (and legal) times
and places. She appreciates my insistance, agrees with it and thanks me for it.

If we are both out together, either we both carry or I carry. For some strange reason, it is just a cool feeling walking alongside your loved one, both packing our G-19s.

JMHO

Dan

 

[masameet]

Well, from that same thread that I linked to is this further addition:

... [T]here is a reservation here that has a WalMart and a Home Depot store on reservation property adjacent to I-5. Right now a friend of mine is working with the reservation legal system because their tribal rules state that concealed carry on the reservation is allowed in accordance with tribal rules AND state rules. The next regulation states that weapons possession in vehicles must be in accordance with tribal rules OR state rules. So does that mean that anyone present on the reservation with a state CCW can carry in their car but not outside their vehicle without tribal authority?

The tribal government has been quite accomodating regarding my friend's inquiries, but so far his answers from them have been...."hmmm, good question...we don't know..."

BTW, the chief of tribal police initially responded with no way - no concealed carry at all. But then he recanted and admitted he just didn't know.

That last paragraph had me in stitches.

 

[Entoptic]

How in the hell did you get a CCW in Cali? I thought this was the hardest state to do that in.

Ok who's desk at the DA's did you crawl out of???

 

[Caddywumpus]

Some more rural counties give em away like jelly beans.

 

[bergmen]

How in the hell did you get a CCW in Cali? I thought this was the hardest state to do that in.

Ok who's desk at the DA's did you crawl out of???

My wife and I live in Mendocino County (Ukiah) Which has been a "shall issue" county ever since the County Sheriff at the time (Tony Craver) and the District Attorney at the time (Norm Vroman) crafted the policy.

CCW licenses are available to anyone who goes through the processes as long as there are no legal reasons preventing issuance (or by fair discretion of the Sheriff should not have one).

First step is to take the 16 hour CCW course at the local gun club. Norm Vroman was the instructor when my wife and I took the course in 2000. There is a rep from the Sheriff's office at the course to assist in filling out the 19 page application. Fees are paid and a visit to the administration office is made to get fingerprinted and an appointmant made to be interviewed by a ranking officer. This can take up to 1 1/2 hours and is done fairly to weed out individuals with inappropriate reasons for obtaining a permit (those with an axe to grind, want to be vigalantes, etc.).

After the DOJ check is run, the Sheriff signs the license and it arrives in the mail. The department is extremely helpful in obtaining and maintaining the license, assisting where needed to add weapons to the list, etc. They highly encourage getting licensed and to carry our weapons.

The CCW holders in our county are seen as direct contributors to the deterrence of armed criminals and their lethal attacks on law abiding citizens.

The Mendocino County Sheriff's Office and the County District Attorney's Office understand this completely and fully support our desire to be trained, certified and licensed to carry a concealed weapon.

All of California should be so fortunate.

JMHO

Dan

 

[bergmen]

Some more rural counties give em away like jelly beans.

Actually, it is not quite as easy as that. What they will do is help you get one and not stand in the way if you are not legally prevented from obtaining one.

The state still sets the minimum requirements (16 hour certification course, fingerprinting, DOJ background check, etc.) and these hoops must be jumped through no matter which county one lives in.

In our case it took nearly a year from start to finish, mostly because of the certification class backlog. The course is given once a month and there was a nine month waiting list. After that is done, there are time lags for the other steps (scheduling the interview, waiting for the DOJ clearance, fingerprinting, etc.).

Once the license is issued, all there is to do is attend a four hour refresher course every two years. The paperwork is much the same but the process is quicker. The Sheriff's office sends out a letter to license holders a couple of months in advance and includes the schedule of refresher courses to attend. That way we can begin the renewal process and have our new licenses before the existing one expires.

Up to three weapons can be listed and one must qualify with each of them at any of the renewal classes given each month. I have a .45 auto, 9mm and .357 magnum revolver listed on my license. Changes to this list can be made at any time by presenting a qualification form from the class and pay a $10.00 fee to ammend the license. The Sheriff's office has a CCW Coordinator who's full time job is to attend to the CCW holders for administrative issues such as these.

Pretty cool, huh?

JMHO

Dan

 

[narc1rr]

Yo!!!!! I also have a CCW issued by San Diego sheriff dept. never have a problem with it...Carry my GUN any where I go.....

Join the CCW Forum for more detail.....
http://www.calccw.com/

 

[Entoptic]

zomg sign me up. I have been wanting to get one since I was 21 however I heard this state was the worst to try and get it in.

I am not crazed person but I do like to know I am safe.