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Chinese knock-off CRG levers

:rofl Why don't you just man up and admit you're willing to buy counterfeit products in order to save a few bucks. That's really what it boils down to, the VP vs 'family man' bullshit is simply laughable. Sure, I get it, you probably don't like having it slammed in your face but the reality is you're giving your money to THIEVES because they can illegally copy a product, manufacture it in China and sell it to you on eBay for a lot less than the genuine product.

Really, why are some of you guys so shy about it, the Chinese counterfeit industry is a multi-billion dollar industry, there are obviously a huge number of people who are willing to buy counterfeit products. You're not alone. Just don't waste your time trying to convince yourself and others that it's somehow ethical because it's not. It's really not, you know that damn well, you're just making a choice in order to save a few bucks. This isn't just about CRG levers and it's been going on for decades, it's about LV and Rolex and every product that has been illegally copied and then sold for a fraction of the price of the real one. I think I still have a Faux-lex somewhere that somebody brought me as a joke but I don't walk around with it making some ridiculous claim that I'm not a highly compensated VP, therefore it's ok to wear the counterfeit. :rolleyes

You're buying counterfeit merchandise, get over it already. If it bothered your conscience enough, you wouldn't do it. It's that simple.


I'm with Ya 100% ...
 
I raced motorcycles for 18 seasons. I went through at least 25-30 motorcycles, just lost count after a while. I have never installed questionable quality parts, especially on 'mission critical' items like brakes. I think that's nuts, I've gone 170+ mph and losing my brakes would be pure insanity. Frankly, losing your brakes on the street with all those cars and trucks around is probably at least as scary. Why somebody would take chances with a Chinese knock-off is beyond my comprehension. Even with reverse-engineering they can make a mistake in design, metals used or manufacturing that can have dire consequences. If you were rock climbing, would you buy your carabiners from Harbor Freight?? I don't rock climb but if I did, I would be spending a bunch more money for the quality stuff at REI, definitely not taking my chances with Harbor Freight stuff even if it looks exactly like the name brand carabiners!

The parts I used were designed and extensively tested for racing, I'm not down with playing guinea pig for every shithead on the planet who thinks they can build a copy of a 'mission critical' product like brake levers. The difference between "counterfeiting" and "cheaper alternatives" only happens when the 'cheaper alternative' doesn't reverse engineer another product. On my last supermoto racebike, we used ASV Unbreakable levers and they were pretty awesome, always allowing us to pick up the racebike after a spill and rejoin the race. If a Chinese company came out with a different design, tested it and proved it on racing circuits like ASV, I would consider them a 'cheaper alternative'. However, a shameless copy of the CRG or ASV product is not "competition", it is THEFT. Anything that is reverse-engineered is THEFT! And don't think for a minute that it only happens with Chinese companies, there have been cases right here in California where motorcycle parts were shamelessly copied and then sold by other companies.

I will give you an example of two products that appear to be very similar to the naked eye, except they're not. One was designed, tested and built to very high tolerances by a company in Milpitas, the other one was not and should not be considered a 'cheaper alternative':

http://nicholssportbikes.com/products/NFLYFI3P.html

http://www.slingshotracing.net/cata...eight-racing-flywheel-ds1000-ds1100-p-56.html

That $80 difference motivates more than a few Ducati owners to buy the cheaper part and potentially cause thousands of dollars worth of damage to their bike. But at least with an engine problem you will most likely glide to a safe stop, unlike the potential failure of a knock-off brake lever that is a 'mission critical' component on a motorcycle.

No need in convincing me about the lack of quality in the chinese stuff...we're 100% in agreement on that.

On a side note, I shot an email out to CRG and Pazzo. This is the reply I got.

They are just copies of the Pazzos - knock offs if you will. There is no proprietary design, they are all copies of each other. They operate with a cam block to adjust lever position.

I can tell by holding them which is which - the chinese ones have a different feel - I believe they are lighter. If you want I could weigh one if someone else wants to do the same.

The pazzo knocks are copies though as they bought pazzos and took them apart and reengineered them.

The difference between Pazzo and CRG is the roller bearing on the adjuster.

And to answer your question, yes the chinese levers are killing the US lever market for company's like Pazzo and myself - we sell less than half of what we used to here in the US. However we still sell alot of levers every year. But I would estimate the chinese knock off products (not just levers) kill about 30% of the market, the economy has killed another 20%, give or take.

Todd

I figured back and forth email was a bit of a time-suck, so I called the guy afterwards. The jist of the conversation was that there is no proprietary design in the levers; Its a fairly simple design. Todd did, however, say that the part of the design that the chinese seem to steal are the measurements. I see the merit in that complaint, and would be inclined to agree. But at the same time, I can get a CNC machine, a block of aluminum, machine my own lever....would that be stealing as well (assuming my lever looks nothing like a CRG)?
 
What difference does it make if you can see the difference or not. Its a stolen design, probably made by some 9 year old kid. Instead of.a guy trying to feed his family in Watsonville.

Boo hoo. I don't get "economic patriotism." Does the Chinese producer not have a family to feed? Arguably, he has less of a safety net than the guy in Watsonville. Just because Watsonville guy is an American, doesn't mean I should subsidize his higher cost.

Are you a patent lawyer? You seem to be confusing patents with trade dress.
 
You miss the point, entirely, that while the Chinese lever may look the same, in reality it may very well be an inferior product. 'You want to bet your life on that?

Well, do you base your decisions on "may?" If there are plenty of reviews showing that the levers suck, that is one thing. To dismiss them outright because they "might" not be as good, is strange to me.
 
I don't know why you are so critical about stuff ?! I'd like to talk more but I gotta get down to Ranch 99, they're having a sale on pork !!

I'm only critical about the important shit. Like brakes.

(Well, I am critical about unimportant stuff sometimes. :twofinger)

People come here for advise. Does anyone really want to be the person who says buy the cheap retread tires or buy the brake components made by who knows who? and then find out the person was injured or even killed by the use of a questionable product? I don't. Thus, I will be critical when the product in question has an important, even life saving, function.
 
It's funny some of you guys are giving Robert a hard time. He's 100% correct. As the thread title suggested, you're buying "Chinese knock-off CRG levers" which by definition are a stolen design from CRG, putting money in the hands of THIEVES in China who are stealing the R&D and sales from a small business in California. And then you come up with 1001 excuses and rationalizing why it's somehow ok to buy knock-offs. .

Not so fast. Is Sunny Select corn cereal "stolen" from Kellogg's Corn Flakes (as a silly example)? I don't know enough about either CRG or Chinese levers to say whether they are actual violations of patent. But, you are blindly equating similarity with theft.
 
Why somebody would take chances with a Chinese knock-off is beyond my comprehension. Even with reverse-engineering they can make a mistake in design, metals used or manufacturing that can have dire consequences. If you were rock climbing, would you buy your carabiners from Harbor Freight?? I don't rock climb but if I did, I would be spending a bunch more money for the quality stuff at REI, definitely not taking my chances with Harbor Freight stuff even if it looks exactly like the name brand carabiners!

Well said! :thumbup
 
But at the same time, I can get a CNC machine, a block of aluminum, machine my own lever....would that be stealing as well (assuming my lever looks nothing like a CRG)?

From a technical stand point, yes. From a business standpoint, not really. One can use aspects of another's design as long as they aren't selling them and making money on it or otherwise hurting the originator's business. And also assuming that those design aspects are protected in some way, like patents.
 
This is probably as good a place as any to ask this tangent:

Hypothetically speaking, if the Chinese manufacturers took an existing design in the market to copy its specs, but altered it enough either aesthetically or built upon the existing design, did they still steal?

In other words, they reverse-engineered a product to get its fundamental measurements, then used that as a foundation to create a different design.

The Chinese design is only aesthetically different? If they used patented technology/design specs, then they stole. Covering it up in a different style doesn't affect patent.

That is kind of my point too (although from the other side). Is there something about CRG's technology/design specs that are patented, or patent-worthy? I genuinely have no idea (I'm not a poser squid that wants aftermarket levers...:twofinger), but if not, then there is no theft.

"Double bubble" windshields are probably not patented (could be wrong, but I don't know if they meet the "novel" standard), and if not, then Chinese "two-level" windshields are just another similar (and legal) competitor on the market.
 
From a technical stand point, yes. From a business standpoint, not really. One can use aspects of another's design as long as they aren't selling them and making money on it or otherwise hurting the originator's business. And also assuming that those design aspects are protected in some way, like patents.

I think that is the main focus of discussion. And it was addressed by a rep from Pazzo: there are no patents on design. He stated that about 30 some odd years ago, there was some sort of patent on the adjustable lever design. This patent has since expired. So from a legal standpoint, I think it makes it fair game....no?
 
People come here for advise. Does anyone really want to be the person who says buy the cheap retread tires or buy the brake components made by who knows who? and then find out the person was injured or even killed by the use of a questionable product? I don't. Thus, I will be critical when the product in question has an important, even life saving, function.

Even if you know nothing about the actual product? So, based on reputation (general to an entire country), you would tell the inquirer not to buy? If you don't know anything about the product itself, wouldn't it be most reasonable to just say nothing?
 
I think that is the main focus of discussion. And it was addressed by a rep from Pazzo: there are no patents on design. He stated that about 30 some odd years ago, there was some sort of patent on the adjustable lever design. This patent has since expired. So from a legal standpoint, I think it makes it fair game....no?

So it's not stealing and afmotorsports was wrong. /thread?
 
Well, do you base your decisions on "may?" If there are plenty of reviews showing that the levers suck, that is one thing. To dismiss them outright because they "might" not be as good, is strange to me.

They sound like quality product...

w/ knock-off levers is the lever not allowing the master cylinder to fully release, so the brakes get hot, pressures goes up, and they end up locking



Had this happen to me



You might be interested in going on the ZX-10.net site..And finding the thread(s), on other riders that used them. and had their front brake lock up..




I got a pair of knock-off levers from Cycle Gear. Put both of them on and the brake lever didn't fit right, was too tight because the plastic insert was maybe 0.1-1mm too thick. I only really needed/wanted the clutch lever anyway, so I returned the brake lever. No way was I going to risk it malfunctioning on me.



Overall the quality seems pretty good, but not quite as good as the "real thing". My main gripe is that there's a bit more vertical wiggle in the spring-loaded joint part of the levers -



My one complaint is that there seems to be slightly more play between the clutch lever and the lever housing than there was with the stock lever.
 
They sound like quality product...

w/ knock-off levers is the lever not allowing the master cylinder to fully release, so the brakes get hot, pressures goes up, and they end up locking



Had this happen to me



You might be interested in going on the ZX-10.net site..And finding the thread(s), on other riders that used them. and had their front brake lock up..




I got a pair of knock-off levers from Cycle Gear. Put both of them on and the brake lever didn't fit right, was too tight because the plastic insert was maybe 0.1-1mm too thick. I only really needed/wanted the clutch lever anyway, so I returned the brake lever. No way was I going to risk it malfunctioning on me.



Overall the quality seems pretty good, but not quite as good as the "real thing". My main gripe is that there's a bit more vertical wiggle in the spring-loaded joint part of the levers -



My one complaint is that there seems to be slightly more play between the clutch lever and the lever housing than there was with the stock lever.

You are right, they do. Look at your last two reviews. Positive things to say, with one minor negative.

With the 1st, the guy was WORRIED that the brakes might lock up; they didn't actually do so. And, you have many more people in this thread stating that they have had no issues whatsoever.

If you are going to cherry pick, at least do so competently...:twofinger
 
You are right, they do. Look at your last two reviews. Positive things to say, with one minor negative.

With the 1st, the guy was WORRIED that the brakes might lock up; they didn't actually do so. And, you have many more people in this thread stating that they have had no issues whatsoever.

If you are going to cherry pick, at least do so competently...:twofinger

So you're ok with taking a chance on your front locking up because these things aren't measured to fit proper, real smart!:thumbup
 
So you're ok with taking a chance on your front locking up because these things aren't measured to fit proper, real smart!:thumbup

To paraphrase the esteemed Lloyd from Dumb and Dumber:

One in a million is a "chance," right?

If these levers are 99.99% as safe as CRGs, well that is a one in 10,000 (higher) chance of a safety mishap.

Is every part of your bike (or we can limit it to "essential" parts) the absolute safest part on the market? If you have street tires, shouldn't you get race tires, just to be "safe?" Who cares about mileage life or cost, this is your SAFETY we are talking about. :thumbup:laughing
 
Are they certified for a certain weight? if they are rated then yes I would use them.

Do you believe everything on tv ? in the newspapers ? that salesmen tell you ?

I work in an industry with aspects regulated by OSHA. Load testing is common for tools that are used for lifting. Shackles and clevises are a common component of lifting tools. The company that I send my shackles to for load testing will NOT test items made in China. They will return them untested.

Why? here's there answer: "dear customer; we refuse to test shackles and clevises made in China, for the safety of our employees. Through experience, we have found that these items MAY safely test once or twice, but will always have a catastrophic failure eventually. Items made in the U.S.A. do not have this issue"


Welcome to a world where appearances are not ALL that counts.
 
If this is the CRG knockoff stuff found at cycle gear, I've got both of them on mine. The mirrors are surprisingly convex and work well. The handlebars have a decent weight to them and the adjuster seems like decent quality. I bought them off amazon for $50.

What happened to your levers is NOT a measure of quality. If you understood engineering, metelurgy, and manufacturing, you'd understand that.

How so? A cheaper product would've snapped do to improper metallurgy.
 
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Do you believe everything on tv ? in the newspapers ? that salesmen tell you ?

I work in an industry with aspects regulated by OSHA. Load testing is common for tools that are used for lifting. Shackles and clevises are a common component of lifting tools. The company that I send my shackles to for load testing will NOT test items made in China. They will return them untested.

Sort of tongue-in-cheek, but do you believe everything a govt agency tells you? If so, I have a (possibly shoddy) bridge to sell you...

http://www.sacbee.com/2012/08/04/4693812/caltrans-records-show-problems.html
 
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