Excuse me, do you have a moment to talk about Sonoma Raceway’s rental increase?

[Moto Beck]

This happened on the east coast with Pocono - can't say if increase in track prices were a direct cause of that but most days were pretty damn crowded at other tracks. The trackday orgs are constantly fighting for track time and there's always drama.

We're lucky to have a long track season and great tracks - and what seems like little drama between track orgs - i'm looking forward to doing my first day at Sonoma this year.

 

[ViperThreat]

I'm not asking for direct support of Sonoma, only support for the vendors that have to endure the increased pricing structure

Oh there's no problem there. I intend to attend as many trackdays as possible this year, just probably not at any Sonoma events.

it seems that many riders were unaware that the increase was perpetuated by Sonoma

I'm surprised by that honestly. It seems pretty obvious to me that the venue is overpriced, since the only other explanation would be that all the trackday orgs have a gentlemens agreement to monopolize trackday pricing on that track in particular - which is almost silly to say out loud

It's your choice, support the vendors that offer Sonoma and we'll likely see continued availability, avoid the venue and I have no doubt in a few years it will simply be a rarity, if available at all.

Oh I'm sure that we'll see reduced availability of Sonoma Trackdays, but honestly, that's probably the best thing that could happen. You need to remember that tracks only make money when there's rubber on the asphalt. Sure Sonoma can probably sustain itself with the major events that they host, but I'm willing to bet that trackdays account for at least $1,000,000 in revenue each year for them.

If they continue to increase their rates and price trackdays out of the game, they're giving up on significant income.

Now the Sonoma execs may be greedy, but they probably aren't stupid. Once they realize that their pricing is killing attendance and revenue, they'll relax their pricing - which is all the better for us.

Until that happens though, I'd rather not support them.

 

[berth]

I'll say one more thing and shut up. A high level Sears Point exec ( personal friend) told me a couple years ago about their new strategy: "We're going to raise prices until they scream."

I'm not asking for direct support of Sonoma, only support for the vendors that have to endure the increased pricing structure as I'm certain ALL of the vendors have had to elevate their pricing accordingly and as such, it seems that many riders were unaware that the increase was perpetuated by Sonoma and not a random money grab by the vendors.

Maybe its the vendors that the Sears exec wants screaming.

 

[afm199]

I'm not asking for direct support of Sonoma, only support for the vendors that have to endure the increased pricing structure as I'm certain ALL of the vendors have had to elevate their pricing accordingly and as such, it seems that many riders were unaware that the increase was perpetuated by Sonoma and not a random money grab by the vendors.

It's your choice, support the vendors that offer Sonoma and we'll likely see continued availability, avoid the venue and I have no doubt in a few years it will simply be a rarity, if available at all.

Truth be told, I don't have skin this game, so to speak, although I do enjoy Sonoma and hopefully I've done my part in spreading the word.

Take care.

It works itself out. We all love the track, and none of us will keep riding if trackday prices rise so high that it simply becomes financially burdensome.

 

[Moto Beck]

t simply becomes financially burdensome.

It's not financially burdensome now?!

 

[afm199]

It's not financially burdensome now?!

AT $300 a day, I suspect that Sears Point days will start losing money. That's close now. I'd rather drive to Thill by far.

Honestly, it's already made a huge difference. 10 years ago, just before the big recession, Sears Point days sold out the same day they were listed.

Today they seldom sell out. Which means TDP's just book fewer.

Keigwins is doing three this year. That's far fewer than it used to be. 8 years ago they did nine or ten. In fact none of the TDP's are weighing in heavily at Sears Point, which pretty much means that the ball is in the track's court.

 

[Moto Beck]

AT $300 a day, I suspect that Sears Point days will start losing money. That's close now. I'd rather drive to Thill by far.

Honestly, it's already made a huge difference. 10 years ago, just before the big recession, Sears Point days sold out the same day they were listed.

Today they seldom sell out. Which means TDP's just book fewer.

Keigwins is doing three this year. That's far fewer than it used to be. 8 years ago they did nine or ten. In fact none of the TDP's are weighing in heavily at Sears Point, which pretty much means that the ball is in the track's court.

no doubt - same thing happened on the east coast - there were a ton of tracks and it basically consolidated to 2 in the NJ/NY area unless you wanted to travel 4+ hours to NC/Virginia.

 

[VPREATR]

In all honesty, all of the Northern California tracks have increased their rental costs, it's quite amazing the providers have endured given that track day pricing should have increased accordingly. It's a tough industry with the current climate of rider attrition; it's definitely not the windfall that providers experienced in the early-to-mid 2000's.

If I'm not mistaken the last industry specific report indicated new motorcycle purchases were down over 50% since the peak recorded in 2006 and it hasn't rebounded. I'm curious as to specifics of such, alas, I'll leave that task for the analysts.

Take care.

 

[ViperThreat]

If I'm not mistaken the last industry specific report indicated new motorcycle purchases were down over 50% since the peak recorded in 2006 and it hasn't rebounded. I'm curious as to specifics of such, alas, I'll leave that task for the analysts.

I can't speak to specifics, but I know that there are a few contributors to this:

1. Younger generations are facing a FAR more difficult economy than older folks - when you're paying upwards of 60% of your paycheck on rent alone, spending big bucks on a toy and gear isn't high on your priority list.

2. If you buy a ~2005 or newer motorcycle, you aren't going to see a massive jump in performance compared to a modern bike of the same caliber. In my case, I could never justify spending $18,000 on a New S1000RR that's only a couple seconds faster per lap than my 2006 GSXR that I bought for $4000. The used market is still booming.

3. In Harley Davidson's case, they're aging out too - they cultivated this "badass biker lifestyle" which is rapidly losing it's popularity, especially among younger generations. What's more, their bikes are dated, notoriously unreliable, and very expensive, which is why they're experiencing a huge fall in marketshare.

4. There's more vehicles on the road than ever, and motorcycle saftey statistics haven't improved much over the years. Not a lot of people want to take that kind of risk anymore.


When you put it all together, it's no surprise that sales numbers are down - they're probably going to get worse from here too, unless we get our economy in check.

 

[Junkie]

while an S1000RR isn't all that much faster, what it is is safer: traction control, ABS, etc

 

[Slow Goat]

while an S1000RR isn't all that much faster, what it is is safer: traction control, ABS, etc

And $15k more than he paid for his GSXR, an expense factor supported by his point #1. Motos are a want not a need and cost of the bike and track days is a significant consideration for most people in what (if any) bike they buy or where they ride it.

We’ve got things pretty good here with the three NorCal tracks and those in SoCal.

 

[ReUnited]

Heck, wealthiest piece of land in the world has shittiest tracks. Look at any European track, not even a MotoGP track, something WSBK level, they have proper run-offs, gravel traps, markers for riders to look/point their bikes at, etc.
There is only one gravel trap at Sonoma - at the end of the drag strip. Track is ridiculously unsafe for everyone, beginner or pro and it is going to remain so until they follow international safety standards. Same applicable for t-hill, buttonwillow and laguna (tracks I've been to, well, yes, laguna is somehow a little better than other three, but sound restriction and price kills it)
Zero tolerance for a mistake - I know several guys who tried doing trackdays, crashed because of running off or hitting unreasonably high curb and quit, because they had to pay medical bill for broken collar bone or ankle.
Don't get me wrong, I love trackdays and all our trackday providers and I'll be supporting this sport as much as I can, because I love motorcycles and all related to them, but safety is a big concern and we all should stand and raise our voice.

P.S. checkout this vid from Portimao (shithole in Portugal) and look at the quality of the track

[youtube]RllnXpuvvqc[/youtube]

 

[ontherearwheel]

Well, I'll raise my voice..........don't freaking crash.

How many people didn't crash? Seem those that didn't musta knew something different from those that did....at a track day.

Do not blame poor judgement on how to ride the track on the track.

Poor decesions, poor judgement is the root of the majority of track day crashes.

If ya don't like the track don't ride it....however there are those that have no issues with the track, dont crash when others do.

Explain that......why do some crash and others don't at the same track on the same day?

 

[afm199]

Well, I'll raise my voice..........don't freaking crash.

How many people didn't crash? Seem those that didn't musta knew something different from those that did....at a track day.

Do not blame poor judgement on how to ride the track on the track.

Poor decesions, poor judgement is the root of the majority of track day crashes.

If ya don't like the track don't ride it....however there are those that have no issues with the track, dont crash when others do.

Explain that......why do some crash and others don't at the same track on the same day?

Generally agreed. Pro racers are paid to go really fast. I'll throw a number out there. 90% of trackday crashes are EASILY avoidable, and 6% more are avoidable. The crashes that are due to factors you can't control are very few and far between.

I can think of two crashes I have had where someone else ran into me. That's in 50 years of riding and 30 on the track. EVERY OTHER CRASH was MY fault.

 

[cg_ops]

Generally agreed. Pro racers are paid to go really fast. I'll throw a number out there. 90% of trackday crashes are EASILY avoidable, and 6% more are avoidable. The crashes that are due to factors you can't control are very few and far between.

I can think of two crashes I have had where someone else ran into me. That's in 50 years of riding and 30 on the track. EVERY OTHER CRASH was MY fault.

You're totally right.

That said, the poor condition of the track CAN affect the likelihood of crashes. Things like the seam on the carousel/T6 are real hazards. Yes, riders should be able to avoid or compensate, however, if they're at the limit due to another rider, then it could be the straw that breaks the traction's back.

Anywho, I agree that for what they're charging, the track should be in FAR better shape than it is.

 

[wfo439]

A little birdie told me last year that Sonoma is scheduled to be repaved in '19. I'll be attending all the days I can this year at Sonoma. Still my favorite track despite the turn 1 Wes Cooley abomination and the damn bus stop. The original track was best.

z2 is getting more Sonoma days this year. Probably due to their combined bike/ car days. The car TD provider can get more per day from their customers increasing revenue..

 

[ontherearwheel]

You're totally right.

That said, the poor condition of the track CAN affect the likelihood of crashes. Things like the seam on the carousel/T6 are real hazards. Yes, riders should be able to avoid or compensate, however, if they're at the limit due to another rider, then it could be the straw that breaks the traction's back.

Anywho, I agree that for what they're charging, the track should be in FAR better shape than it is.

How can a rider be at the limit because of another rider?

A rider is at the limit because that rider wants to be there. It's their decision to be at the limit based on their judgement of the current situation.

In the short 5 years I raced, I had two accidents.....one totally my fault, the other was getting T boned in turn 11 at Sears Point....there was nothing I could have done on that one.

But they both have one thing in common.......poor judgement was used in making on track decisions.

The track had nothing to do with it.

That's my point....the track is not the issue but those not knowing how to use proper judgement for on track decisions are.

 

[afm199]

That's my point....the track is not the issue but those not knowing how to use proper judgement for on track decisions are.

Pretty much this. I don't like poorly maintained tracks. However, the speed and intensity I bring to a trackday depend on many things, particularly number of riders, skill levels, track conditions, and weather.

 

[ViperThreat]

That's my point....the track is not the issue but those not knowing how to use proper judgement for on track decisions are.

Not disagreeing with this, but I'd also argue that if I wanted a bumpy ride, I'd take my dirtbike to Carnegie. Part of the reason I sign up for trackdays is to have a safe environment to explore the outer limits of my bike's capabilities (within reason of course).

Still, it's a bit counter-productive to pay a lot of money to ride on a track that's in similar condition to the ratty freeway that I ride to work on.

 

[afm199]

while an S1000RR isn't all that much faster, what it is is safer: traction control, ABS, etc

On the track, the rider determines safety, not the tech. Period.

I've picked up a lot of S1000rr's, .

The idiot riding the bike is always the issue. Most crashes at the track occur either charging corners and fucking up braking or getting into the gas too early on exit. The traction control (IF PROPERLY SET UP), helps with the latter.