Eye tracking video on track

[darkie]

Here's an eye tracking video I did on track at Vegas. We invested in that technology and it's pretty cool to have. I'm curious what your conclusion is from seeing it.

 

[peterhively]

That is really cool! At my last track day I reminded myself to get my eyes moving and went quite a bit quicker.

This would be very interesting to try, and I'd be curious if you'll be able to see when a rider's eyes get stuck! Also would be interesting to overlay it with bike data to see where delayed eye movement leads to delayed control inputs.

 

[budman]

That is really cool.!!

I can see that being an effective learning tool for you guys.

 

[Lonster]

It looks like cool tech.
My conclusion, after watching your video, is that I look TOO far thru the corner. ??
Or were you NOT looking too far because of the tracking?

 

[ST Guy]

Interesting. I always rode that way, pretty much. And riding on a track is way different from riding on the street. I’ll bet that if you made a video on the street, you’d see your eyes moving around a lot more, looking for hazards like people entering the road, etc.

 

[berth]

I want to see the eye tracking video of that kid running from the police.

 

[darkie]

It looks like cool tech.
My conclusion, after watching your video, is that I look TOO far thru the corner. ??
Or were you NOT looking too far because of the tracking?

My theory is at lower speeds on public roads we are looking further up to get a preview of any hazards. On the track we want to look ahead for sure but too far loses the inch-perfect line accuracy riders need. Our research so far shows the apex gets a good percentage of attention before moving on to the exit zone. A sport touring rider might look out to the exit zone earlier because they are not necessarily looking for an inch-perfect apex on a public road, well within the limits of traction.

I was just looking where I normally do when riding.

 

[Lonster]

Thank you for the feedback and observations.

 

[ThinkFast]

On the track we want to look ahead for sure but too far loses the inch-perfect line accuracy riders need. Our research so far shows the apex gets a good percentage of attention before moving on to the exit zone.

What are you basing this on? Curious to know the research you’re citing.

I’ve always worked on pushing my vision out as far as possible. My mantra, especially for track riding but also for road riding when I can see all the way through a corner, is look and let go. Meaning that once I’ve spotted my turn in or apex or exit, the sooner I can move on to the next section the better. Which means I need to trust my brain to remember what I spotted and will direct me to that spot well after I’ve moved my attention ahead. Look and let go.

It’s a fun mental exercise to practice. And it’s always amazing to me how accurately my track conforms to my intention even though I’m not looking at the spot I chose when I get to it.

Would love to see what this looks like hooked up to a MotoGP or WSB rider.

Also, how cool would it be if it could be turned into a game-type app, where you get points for having your attention in the correct place as you ride??

 

[Holeshot]

Dylan, do you have any material w/ other bikes around you? I'd find that more interesting, when closing/ passing other riders.

 

[darkie]

What are you basing this on? Curious to know the research you’re citing.

I’ve always worked on pushing my vision out as far as possible. My mantra, especially for track riding but also for road riding when I can see all the way through a corner, is look and let go. Meaning that once I’ve spotted my turn in or apex or exit, the sooner I can move on to the next section the better. Which means I need to trust my brain to remember what I spotted and will direct me to that spot well after I’ve moved my attention ahead. Look and let go.

It’s a fun mental exercise to practice. And it’s always amazing to me how accurately my track conforms to my intention even though I’m not looking at the spot I chose when I get to it.

Would love to see what this looks like hooked up to a MotoGP or WSB rider.

Also, how cool would it be if it could be turned into a game-type app, where you get points for having your attention in the correct place as you ride??

I'm basing my research on footage gathered using tracking glasses worn by various riders, including, surprisingly, a 53-time MotoAmerica race winner who I had try them out.

You've emphasized the importance of pushing your vision as far ahead as possible. However, "as possible" likely varies from person to person. Perhaps what you mean is "as far ahead as is visually available"? That works well in some corners, but in situations where the next five corners are clearly visible, should a rider focus on corner #5 and trust that corners #1-4 will sort themselves out? At low speeds, this might work, but it wouldn’t reliably hold up, especially when considering the principle of "you go where you look." The rider might miss the apex of corner #1 entirely by focusing on corner #5.

When it comes to vision strategies, phrases like "looking as far ahead as possible" or "looking through the corner" are often vague and poorly defined. We're attempting to move beyond these clichés by gathering concrete data from tracking glasses. This is new territory for us, and we're learning more with every session. We've barely scratched the surface of understanding optimal eye behavior, especially in complex settings like urban traffic. Similarly, the common advice to "keep your eyes constantly moving" has its own pitfalls. While not inherently wrong, it has limitations. For example, saccadic masking or saccadic suppression can significantly impact a rider's visual processing.

If you're curious, I recommend looking into those phenomena and sharing your thoughts—I’d love to hear them.

 

[darkie]

Dylan, do you have any material w/ other bikes around you? I'd find that more interesting, when closing/ passing other riders.

I do, the expert rider spends some, but very little time looking at the rider in front they are passing. The amateur spends more time looking at the rider in front.

 

[budman]

I remember Keith discussing saccadic suppression and testing it in the back yard.. it was real.
I slowed the eyes down a bit and life popped back. I then made sure to apply it to the street rides, in particular around town where driveways are ever present with potential cage interventions.

Good point about the multiple turn scenario and looking ahead. While I do look ahead I found that on the street I am bouncing back to look at road conditions for a tenth or two of a second here and there. Since I am not trying to optimize the speed and just ride at a fun pace I kind of feel it is important to be able to define road hazards.

 

[ThinkFast]

PART 1 of 3 - Look and Let Go expanded on

You've emphasized the importance of pushing your vision as far ahead as possible. However, "as possible" likely varies from person to person. Perhaps what you mean is "as far ahead as is visually available"? That works well in some corners, but in situations where the next five corners are clearly visible, should a rider focus on corner #5 and trust that corners #1-4 will sort themselves out? At low speeds, this might work, but it wouldn’t reliably hold up, especially when considering the principle of "you go where you look." The rider might miss the apex of corner #1 entirely by focusing on corner #5.

No, not visually available. To your point, looking past the next section of a corner may be superfluous or even counter effective. Upon further reflection prompted by your question (thank you for that) what I really meant was as soon as possible: move your focus to the next section of the corner as soon as possible.

Let’s assume that from a cognitive standpoint, our brain’s “targeting computer” is capable of only locking in on and mentally holding one point at a time for execution. ‘As far ahead as possible’ really means ‘as soon as possible.’ The sooner I can lock in the next section of a corner, the faster I can go. So how does one go about doing that?

By way of example, I’ll use T1 at RoadAmerica. It’s a big, 100mph right hander at the end of the front straight. The corner is constant radius and has three parts: entry, apex, and exit.

My entry is where I tip in, which I identify using whatever visual references I’ve developed for that corner, and I start looking for it up track as I’m starting my braking sequence and shifting my body position. The sooner I can visually let go of the entry and shift my focus to the apex and lock it in visually and cognitively, the better.

Ideally I’ve already started to move my eyes to the apex before I tip in. I can do this if I’ve got the entry/tip-in point cognitively “locked in” from multiple repetitions of the corner and no longer need to look for it. I need to trust, though, that my brain will guide my line and wheel track to the turn-in point I locked in on with high confidence and precision. That’s the “let go” part.

So I’ve hit my entry point and initiated my turn and I’ve already started moving my visual (and mental) focus to my predetermined apex point. I’m not scanning for the apex. I’m moving my eyes and attention from one fixed point to another, minimizing scanning and therefore saccadic suppression. I can do this because I “know” this corner from repetition; I’m not hunting for the apex. I know exactly where I’ll find it, the same way a great hitter “knows” where to find the ball milliseconds after it leaves the pitcher’s hand (more on that in my next post).

So I move my eyes directly to the apex point and cognitively lock it in. That’s the “look” part. Ideally I’ve done this at or just after corner entry, which means I can move my attention on to my exit. I shift my visual focus directly to the exit, again with no scanning. That’s the “let go” part. Look and let go.

PS -(and where can you see five corners ahead??).

 

[ThinkFast]

PART 2 of 3 - Saccadic Suppression Unpacked

When it comes to vision strategies, phrases like "looking as far ahead as possible" or "looking through the corner" are often vague and poorly defined. We're attempting to move beyond these clichés by gathering concrete data from tracking glasses. This is new territory for us, and we're learning more with every session. We've barely scratched the surface of understanding optimal eye behavior, especially in complex settings like urban traffic. Similarly, the common advice to "keep your eyes constantly moving" has its own pitfalls. While not inherently wrong, it has limitations. For example, saccadic masking or saccadic suppression can significantly impact a rider's visual processing.

If you're curious, I recommend looking into those phenomena and sharing your thoughts—I’d love to hear them.

Thanks for sharing that information. Per your invitation, I did some research into saccadic suppression (which is just another term for saccadic masking) and found a great white paper about it and how it relates to vision training for pro athletes:
https://www.eyecenteroptometric.com...time-and-processing-to-give-athletes-an-edge/

A key takeaway for me that supports my look and let go strategy is in this passage from the article:

Motor actions are guided by a combination of cognitive planning and feedback from the visual system updated in as close to real time as the surrounding environment dictates. Research investigating the role of feedback on visual–motor control has demonstrated that movements become progressively more visually guided as the athlete shows improved performance.

This next passage introduces saccadic suppression and expands on the above statement.

One of the most intriguing aspects of saccadic eye movements is known as saccadic suppression and omission. The brain effectively visually masks the neural noise. The key here is the brain is not ‘steady state on’ during saccadic eye movements, as it does not process the visual information concurrently with the saccadic movement. The subject uses their peripheral or peri-central vision to acquire the target. Then the brain estimates the location, and the eyes rapidly move to the desired location (hopefully). This can be as simple as a shortstop peripherally acquiring the first baseman after fielding a ball hit to him, making the requisite rapid saccadic eye movement followed by the motor response of throwing the ball. Or perhaps a basketball player quickly locking onto the basket rim peripherally, then snapping the saccadic eye movement onto the rim, landing there long enough to calibrate his/her shot.

I interpret this to mean that look and let go could be a good visual strategy as one becomes familiar with each corner on a given track. Once you know where each section of every corner on the track is, you can minimize saccadic suppression by alternating between peri-central vision (ie, “wide” vision) for visually acquiring a fix on the next section of the corner and using track knowledge to foveate directly on the next section to cognitively lock it in for execution. Once a section is locked in you use peri-central (wide) vision for acquiring the next section and move focus directly to it, thereby minimizing saccadic suppression.

Saccadic suppression is minimized here because you’re no longer scanning with continuous saccades to find the next corner section target, you already know where it is and move your attention directly there. You cognitively lock it in and then “let go” - move out to peri-central and scan for the next one.

The article provides an analogous example using baseball hitting, which I think does a great job of illustrating what I’m trying to describe:

The better hitters in baseball begin to recognize the pitch- a curveball, slider, fast ball or change up, literally milliseconds from the release point. Then, the effort is to make a saccadic eye movement and re-acquire the ball, hopefully near the contact point of bat meeting ball. Just like while reading, the brain uses the visual information before making the saccadic eye movement. Then the brain ‘fills in‘ the gap. The goal is to utilize stroboscopic vision training (SVT) to help refine the visual information needed before saccadic suppression is initiated, then to work for faster and more accurate saccades, with improved fixation stability so once visual processing resumes, it does so at a faster and more discerning rate.

So that’s my take on saccadic suppression. Thanks, again, for your reply and added info.

 

[ThinkFast]

PART 3 OF 3 - In Conclusion

I’m basing my research on footage gathered using tracking glasses worn by various riders, including, surprisingly, a 53-time MotoAmerica race winner who I had try them out.

I still do wonder, though, how their results would compare with those of a MotoGP rider on the same day, same track, same bike. Which one would turn in a faster lap time, the MA winner or the MotoGP rider? I’d bet (as would most people) that it would be the MotoGP rider.

But why? What would they be doing differently? My hypothesis is that it has more to do with cognitive skills than physical conditioning or other physio-mechanical differences. What a MotoGP rider does with the information their brain receives during a lap is going to be qualitatively different from what a MA rider’s brain does with it. Could this cognitive difference at least be partially attributed to saccadic training? That’s the question I’d be interested in seeing some research on.

I’d be curious to get your thoughts on that or any of the above - I find all this fascinating.

 

[budman]

Good stuff Tom.

 

[darkie]

Tom,

Nice to see you did your homework, and then some. A few responses:

First, where can you see five corners ahead? While definitely one extreme of the pendulum, some mountain roads allow us to see a serpentine stretch of road ahead with multiple corners. On a racetrack, what immediately comes to mind is Road Atlanta. It’s an outlier for sure, but the point remains: looking far past the current corner can lead to a loss of accuracy in the one you're currently navigating.

You mention when to look up to the next point, saying “as soon as possible.” This is something we as riders can often intuitively identify, but let me reduce it to a succinct and practical way to convey that idea: you move off a visual target when you feel confident you will arrive at it, then shift to the next area or target. If you move off a visual target too soon, the back-tracking saccade this causes usually results in a loss of precision.

I have a similar take on what you’re saying about peri-central vision, but here’s another piece of homework: what is "foveal vision," and how many degrees of foveal vision do humans have? The detail in peri-central vision falls off steeply, and my current opinion is that within the entire visual field available to someone with their eyes open, it’s more about shifting our attention. That concept is its own rabbit hole. You probably already know that cognitive science has established we can only focus our attention on one thing at a time, and that our reality is effectively stitched together from fragments of sensory inputs. Reality isn’t a direct reflection of sensory input but rather an interpretation of it. I read recently the brain’s perceptual refresh rate—the rate at which it processes discrete chunks of information—is often estimated at 13-16 Hz.

Regarding MotoGP riders and MotoAmerica riders: we’d all bet the MotoGP rider has a higher likelihood of outperforming the national-level rider. There are examples of national riders outperforming world-level riders, but these are more exceptions than the rule. In my opinion, it comes down to the correct creation of neural pathways at a high level of intensity and for an extended duration. This ultimately hinges on the persistence and focus of the rider but, perhaps more importantly, on the training and racing environment, such as the youth racing programs in Spain and Italy.

I just returned from the track today, where I was working with a 14-year-old rider who has competed in Europe, Asia, and the USA. The amount of work, dedication, time, money, and training it takes is on par with Olympic gymnasts or figure skaters and, in many ways, exceeds the buy-in because the penalty for a mistake or even bad luck can be, and has been, death.

 

[darkie]

Here's a short clip riding my mountain bike.

 

[budman]

Makes sense to be a little more focused on the trail conditions. I was actually a bit suprised at how far ahead your eyes were most of the time. Ride that trail often D??

Be cool to see how a spr0tbile rider in a group zooming some twistess with 3 friends would be.