Feds to probe Walmart shooting of John Crawford III

[Human Ills]

Let us know how the trial goes and how your testimony goes as well. I didn't realize we had someone who was there here on BARF.

It's a matter of public record. It happened just as I described it.
Approached from behind.
Barked command
Opened fire as kid turned around.

Cool that you have no problem with that.

 

[Human Ills]

Why would crawford be reaching for a useless toy? arty

 

[bojangle]

Why would crawford be reaching for a useless toy? arty

Who knows. Maybe he wasn't. It's all how it appeared to the officers. It appeared that way to me watching the video. A little common sense goes a long way.

 

[MysterYvil]

Please elaborate on what you think was stupid. I don't think this man was threatening anyone, or did anything remotely worthy of being shot.

Stupid One: Picking up an unboxed weapon that looks a lot like a rifle.

Stupid Two: Waving it around. (Despite what HI writes, open-carry folks do not do that; it is considered to be rude and unsafe, and for good reason.)

Stupid Three: Not dropping said weapon.

Stupid Four: Most of the posts in this thread?

Again, can't fix it...

(And honestly, revnort, if you had turned that aisle corner and were confronted by a man with a rifle, you would not have felt threatened? I'd like to know what kind of meds you are on... )

 

[bojangle]

Stupid One: Picking up an unboxed weapon that looks a lot like a rifle.

Stupid Two: Waving it around. (Despite what HI writes, open-carry folks do not do that; it is considered to be rude and unsafe, and for good reason.)

Stupid Three: Not dropping said weapon.

Stupid Four: Most of the posts in this thread?

Again, can't fix it...

(And honestly, revnort, if you had turned that aisle corner and were confronted by a man with a rifle, you would not have felt threatened? I'd like to know what kind of meds you are on... )

Winner winner chicken dinner!

 

[Marlowe]

I'm not sure it's that clear cut; did you watch the video?

I'm not at all sure that they told him to drop it -- if they did, they didn't give him much time to comply.

 

[Human Ills]

Winner winner chicken dinner!

You keep forgetting you aren't the judge.

Or the jury.

 

[bojangle]

You keep forgetting you aren't the judge.

Or the jury.

Neither are you. I'm just giving my opinion, just like you're giving yours. The big difference is that my opinion has a bunch of professional training, knowledge, and experience behind it while yours...

Ultimately, people will make up their own minds about things and decide for themselves the relevance and biases of anyone else's input.

 

[bojangle]

I'm not sure it's that clear cut; did you watch the video?

I'm not at all sure that they told him to drop it -- if they did, they didn't give him much time to comply.

I mentioned those same things.

 

[MysterYvil]

I'm not sure it's that clear cut; did you watch the video?

I'm not at all sure that they told him to drop it -- if they did, they didn't give him much time to comply.

How much time would you give someone who was actively brandishing a rifle in a public venue?

Seriously, approximately how much time?

 

[mean dad]

Probably, but it's hard to really see exactly what happened. Where were the cops in relation to the suspect? Did they order him not to move? To put the gun down? Those things I'm not certain of. But the article said that they ordered him to put the gun down and he refuse. The article also said the 911 call reported that he was pointing a gun at kids.

When the second shots were fired as the officers were approaching, it sure looks like he's going for the gun.

So you have factors of a call describing suspicious behavior. You have the suspect holding a realistic looking rifle. And you reportedly have him refusing to drop the gun upon police commands.

So, while it is a bad situation as it turned out to be in hindsight, one must judge the reasonableness of force used from the perspective of the officer, with the knowledge they had at the time of the shooting, giving their training and experience, would it be reasonable for other officers to resact the same way. We are never justified in using deadly force based on bare fear alone. However, in this case, unlike the trooper at the gas station shooting, you had a totality of circumstances that far exceeded bare fear alone. Officers were called to the scene and forced to make a split second deadly force decision and yes, it appears to me that based on the limited information I have, the force used was reasonable and justified under the law....just not the ideal outcome in hindsight.

I call bullshit that they were forced to do anything.

 

[Marlowe]

I mentioned those same things.

It was a general reply; not directed at you specifically.

How much time would you give someone who was actively brandishing a rifle in a public venue?

Seriously, approximately how much time?

Hang on...he's carrying a rifle.

He's not brandishing it, at least he seems to be calm, on the phone, and not pointing it at anyone, and that's absolutely a factor here.

 

[Human Ills]

Neither are you. I'm just giving my opinion, just like you're giving yours. The big difference is that my opinion has a bunch of professional training, knowledge, and experience behind it while yours...

Ultimately, people will make up their own minds about things and decide for themselves the relevance and biases of anyone else's input.

Your training is exactly what is suspect. And a growing portion of the population you work for are saying so.

 

[mean dad]

Stupid One: Picking up an unboxed weapon that looks a lot like a rifle.

Stupid Two: Waving it around. (Despite what HI writes, open-carry folks do not do that; it is considered to be rude and unsafe, and for good reason.)

Stupid Three: Not dropping said weapon.

Stupid Four: Most of the posts in this thread?

Again, can't fix it...

(And honestly, revnort, if you had turned that aisle corner and were confronted by a man with a rifle, you would not have felt threatened? I'd like to know what kind of meds you are on... )

Did you watch the vid?

Step 1. Pick up a toy rifle for sale at a store.
Step 2. Hold said rifle while continuing to shop. Yes, even twirling the damn thing.
Step 3. Turn to see wtf the officers are saying.
Step 4. Die.

 

[MysterYvil]

Hang on...he's carrying a rifle.

He's not brandishing it, at least he seems to be calm, on the phone, and not pointing it at anyone, and that's absolutely a factor here.

That was pretty far from "carrying a rifle." Did you actually watch the video? Lots of muzzle-swinging-around action went on there.

That is brandishing in general, if not at the LEOs in specific.

Again, how long would you wait, Marlowe?

I call bullshit that they were forced to do anything.

If it was you and your kids in that store, what would you be saying?

Did you watch the vid?

Step 1. Pick up a toy rifle for sale at a store.
Step 2. Hold said rifle while continuing to shop. Yes, even twirling the damn thing.
Step 3. Turn to see wtf the officers are saying.
Step 4. Die.

"Toy rifle?" Are you serious?

(Pro tip: that is the anti-LEO/anti-firearm apologist pronunciation of "But I never saw the motorcycle, officer!" All perfectly clear after the fact...)

 

[Marlowe]

You give him at least a couple of seconds, unless he points it at someone.

And that doesn't mean plug him for "turning around to shoot you" when odds are he's turning around because someone just yelled and he's on the phone and has no idea WTF is going on.

 

[revnort]

Hang on...he's carrying a rifle.

He's not brandishing it, at least he seems to be calm, on the phone, and not pointing it at anyone, and that's absolutely a factor here.

This.

Stupid One: Picking up an unboxed weapon that looks a lot like a rifle.

Stupid Two: Waving it around. (Despite what HI writes, open-carry folks do not do that; it is considered to be rude and unsafe, and for good reason.)

Stupid Three: Not dropping said weapon.

Stupid Four: Most of the posts in this thread?

Again, can't fix it...

(And honestly, revnort, if you had turned that aisle corner and were confronted by a man with a rifle, you would not have felt threatened? I'd like to know what kind of meds you are on... )

Wow a personal attack and baiting. Stop posting like douchebag. Maybe it is time to step away from the computer if you get this worked up.

I am not a police officer nor do I claim to be. However as Bojangle noted in another thread the officers should expect certain behavior. When you yell in someones direction, especially if they are on the phone, would you not expect them to turn towards you? The officers should have expected that. They were also taking cover behind the aisle as you see in the video.

If all it takes to get someone legally gunned down is lying on 911 call, well we are even more fucked than I thought.

Brandishing my ass, he is carrying a toy gun found and sold in the store. More discretion was necessary on the officers part.

 

[MysterYvil]

Again, and now very obvious...

CAN'T
FIX
STUPID.

 

[mean dad]

That was pretty far from "carrying a rifle." Did you actually watch the video? Lots of muzzle-swinging-around action went on there.

That is brandishing in general, if not at the LEOs in specific.

Again, how long would you wait, Marlowe?

If it was you and your kids in that store, what would you be saying?

"Toy rifle?" Are you serious?

(Pro tip: that is the anti-LEO/anti-firearm apologist pronunciation of "But I never saw the motorcycle, officer!" All perfectly clear after the fact...)

Yes, I'm serious He was at a place that sold a...wait for it...toy rifle. I understand that your position is that the officers assumed it was real.
However, IN REAL LIFE, IN REAL TIME, he was in a store that sold toy guns, and carried one around with him and was killed because of it.

He was not walking in the street, he was in the fucking store where they sell it. And for fuck's sake, are you seriously asking me what I'd do if I was in Walmart and someone was carrying a pellet gun to purchase? I'd do the same thing I did every other time it happened...nothing at all.

 

[MysterYvil]

Yes, I'm serious He was at a place that sold a...wait for it...toy rifle. I understand that your position is that the officers assumed it was real.
However, IN REAL LIFE, IN REAL TIME, he was in a store that sold toy guns, and carried one around with him and was killed because of it.

He was not walking in the street, he was in the fucking store where they sell it. And for fuck's sake, are you seriously asking me what I'd do if I was in Walmart and someone was carrying a pellet gun to purchase? I'd do the same thing I did every other time it happened...nothing at all.

Again, "toy gun?!" Have you ever been shot with a pellet rifle?

And yes, WalMart does sell toy guns. And pellet rifles. and "real" guns as well. And I'm certain most customers have the common sense to put those into carts, and not wave them around (watch the video, he does wave it around).

So, you would take that chance, for yourself and for your family? Give him a few extra seconds, just to be fair?