Feeling the Countersteer

[mosquito]

Last night I rode to Alice's on 35 and then back on 84 and Alpine road and noticed a different feeling, but I'm not sure what it is. Am I doing this right? Am I being on the verge of a low-side? Something else?

In the past few days I've been trying to lean more and more carefully measure out the amount of countersteer while in turns. Before now I think I've been more vertical and have been leaning the bike more than my body.

I'm getting more consistent in getting a good entry speed, lean and countersteer to the apex. When that's been good I'm rolling on the throttle harder as I come out of the turn and think I'm giving a bit more countersteer. Sometimes when I do it harder it my rear end feels like it scoots to the outside just a bit and it feels a little rough. It doesn't feel out of control though and through the end of the turn it seems like I finished quickly and am precisely where I should be.

It's a new feeling, but I don't know if I'm just now starting to notice it, or if it's more dangerous than it feels, or if it just should feel that way.

Thoughts?

 

[Espionage101]

When you say counter steer to the apex , do you mean you are steering the bike the whole time to the apex? or is it more of one turn of the bar at the corner entry?

 

[mosquito]

I don't quite have the verbage to describe it yet... but say, on a totally arbitrary and subjective scale of 1-100, I think I'm countersteering to 60 at the beginning of the turn and adjust between 55 and 65 while in the turn to adjust my line (it's much easier to think about what I'm doing on a sweeper than a sharper turn for this).

Previously I'd been trying to use just the throttle and lean to adjust my line and by themselves it wasn't working too well.

FWIW,

- I first noticed a little bit of this on Friday's Pie Run -- which was a bit faster than I normally go solo -- tires were underinflated (~5 psi under & ~3 psi under);

- I didn't notice any on Saturday -- conservative rides from Cupertino to Point Reyes in the afternoon and back late at night, prolly with 100 lbs of extra load (saddle bags, tank bag, backpack) -- tires properly inflated for the load;

- I noticed this on all of 9, 35, 84, Alpine, 9 on Sunday night -- slow ride, under posted signs, some to all of the road was moist, there was fog near La Honda -- I'm now sure the tires were overinflated since I didn't adjust after Saturday (~1 psi over and ~3 psi over).

Hmm... now I'm wondering if I just identified a culprit...

 

[Magicdev]

I don't quite have the verbage to describe it yet... but say, on a totally arbitrary and subjective scale of 1-100, I think I'm countersteering to 60 at the beginning of the turn and adjust between 55 and 65 while in the turn to adjust my line (it's much easier to think about what I'm doing on a sweeper than a sharper turn for this).

Previously I'd been trying to use just the throttle and lean to adjust my line and by themselves it wasn't working too well.

FWIW,

- I first noticed a little bit of this on Friday's Pie Run -- which was a bit faster than I normally go solo -- tires were underinflated;

- I didn't notice any on Saturday -- conservative rides from Cupertino to Point Reyes in the afternoon and back and late at night, prolly with 100 lbs of extra load (saddle bags, tank bag, backpack) -- tires properly inflated for the load;

- I noticed this on all of 9, 35, 84, Alpine, 9 on Sunday night -- slow ride, under posted signs, some to all of the road was moist, there was fog near La Honda -- I'm now sure the tires were overinflated since I didn't adjust after Saturday.

Hmm... now I'm wondering if I just identified a culprit...

I think you have got it
The faster you go around a corner the more you must lean the bike, or countersteer. If your tyres are over inflated they will bounce more than usual causing loss of traction. Even if your tyres are properly inflated the more you lean over the more traction your tyres need. This is where your suspension setup will come in to play, keeping your tyres on the road as your lean around the corner. Spend the 40 bucks or so and go to a suspension shop and have them set your suspension for your weight. This is the best money you ll spend.

ride safe, ride smart

 

[ucb]

This notion perplexes me still as well

Say you are leaned over, if you are leaned over and turning already, if you just hold the bars straight you are effectively countersteering, but you arent turning any more

And in terms of tightening up a line, everything I have read/been told, is that you use body position to get the bike to lean more, not additional counter steering input. Essentially you use countersteering to initiate the lean, and then its all body position after that. So if you want to turn more, you need to drop your head/shoulder more into the turn.

Any experienced riders want to chime in

 

[squid vicious]

This notion perplexes me still as well

Say you are leaned over, if you are leaned over and turning already, if you just hold the bars straight you are effectively countersteering, but you arent turning any more

And in terms of tightening up a line, everything I have read/been told, is that you use body position to get the bike to lean more, not additional counter steering input. Essentially you use countersteering to initiate the lean, and then its all body position after that. So if you want to turn more, you need to drop your head/shoulder more into the turn.

Any experienced riders want to chime in

In short: counter steering is what adjusts (adds or subtracts) lean angle. If you're leaned over 20 degrees, you can add a counter steering input to increase lean angle to 40 degrees, you can then add a counter steering input to increase lean angle to 45 degrees. 40 to 45 degrees would of course be a very small input.

Remember, adjusting your body position toward the inside of the turn allows the motorcycle to carve the same radius arc with less lean angle. This means if you drop your upper body/head/shoulders a bunch more WHILE leaned over, this will allow the bike to carve a slightly tighter line without actually adding any additional lean angle.

But....adjusting your body while in the middle of a turn can (and usually will) produce undesired inputs in the throttle and handlebars. With this in mind, in the text book perfect turn you want to have your body position set before adding the counter steering input. The less you move around on the bike at full lean, the better. But if you didn't quite get it right entering the turn, you can compensate with either additional counter steering input to adjust lean angle or some body english to adjust the arc without changing lean angle.

 

[ucb]

Yeah I know the whole set and forget in terms of body position, but can you not also slightly tighten/widen your line with very minor adjustments (mainly dropping your head). I guess if I am using additional bar pressure to induce more lean, im completely oblivious of the fact that I am in fact doing it

 

[mosquito]

For my original post, I checked things out again last night -- 9, 35, Page Mill, Foothill -- with nearly correct tire pressure. I had ~1 psi less than proper last night. The roads were less damp. I tried lots of things to see what was causing that feeling in the end of the turns: more throttle, more countersteer/lean, both of those, different timings for all three of those, different turn entries, different timings for leaning forward, etc. I realised that in the more aggressive turn exits I was also leaning forward more. I also checked out how much I could get the bike to turn / adjust by just leaning while going straight (i.e. hands above the grips).

I now think I was indeed losing traction and slipping sideways a bit due to improper inflation, damp roads, improper suspension setup, and faster / more aggressive riding. Without getting nuts, I couldn't get much of the same feeling again. I did get the most of that feeling when I was leaned over fairly well in the beginning and opened the throttle harder and momentarily leaned more to finish the turn sharper. Even then it was only momentary; the longest duration of it on Sunday night was probably three-quarters of a second.

I think the most telling thing though is that on one turn of 9 I went over a road blemish with only my rear and got the same sort of feeling, just longer, rougher and more pronounced.

Thanks guys. )

--

For leaning and countersteering in a turn, right now I *think* the countersteering at the beginning induces the bike lean and that lean causes the turn. I think more forward lean puts the center of gravity closer to the tire contact patches which makes it easier to lean. More sideways body lean -- while staying generally in line with the bike's own vertical axis -- makes it easier for the suspension to work. And more sideways body lean, in line with the bike or further over, puts more force into the lean and puts the center of gravity closer to the center of the turn which allows for a sharper/quicker turn.

While in a turn I think I'm continuing to countersteer to maintain the bike lean and thereby the turn. If I let go of the handlebars but continued leaning sideways in a turn, the bike would stand up, pull me with it, and go straight, right? Last night in leaning with my hands off the bars I couldn't get the bike to lean or turn very much at all.

Hmmm. Maybe in my earlier post it would have been more correct to say "I think I'm normally countersteering to 60 to initiate a lean / turn, then decreasing the amount of countersteer to 30 to maintain the lean / turn and adjusting between 25 and 35 while in the turn to adjust my line. (And for those aggressive bits that lost a bit of rear traction I was momentarily countersteering to 45 while rolling on the throttle.)" Dunno.

I really don't know exactly how to analyse what happens; this is how I'm thinking about how it feels right now. And yeah, the more experienced input / observations are great.

 

[DataDan]

In short: counter steering is what adjusts (adds or subtracts) lean angle.

You countersteer to move the bike from vertical to a desired lean angle, or from leaned over to straight up as you exit a turn. But generally, you don't need to be applying bar pressure while you're in steady-state cornering--i.e., in a constant-radius turn at constant speed.

However, some bikes are different, and tires change behavior as they wear. So it's sometimes necessary to continue pressure on the inside bar while cornering at constant speed because the bike is trying to stand up. My ST1100 tires are at that point now. Thought it's scuffed all the way over, the rear has enough of an on-center flat strip that it doesn't like to stay leaned over, and bar pressure is required. That will change and go back to neutral--no bar pressure to maintain constant radius--as soon as I get new tires.

 

[squid vicious]

Yeah I know the whole set and forget in terms of body position, but can you not also slightly tighten/widen your line with very minor adjustments (mainly dropping your head). ...

Yes, you can. simply put: If you wish to change lean angle, use the bars (very minutely at high lean angles); if you wish to tighten your arc without changing lean angle, lean off more.

 

[mosquito]

OK, another super-long post... it helps me think about what I'm doing and apply it out there...

--

Thanks for the posts, ucb, everyone. As a newb, I didn't realise some people were primarily shifting their weight in turns. After your posts I went out and tried turning by shifting my weight over much much more than I had been and I learned a lot.

I found out that the amount of my leaning really was minimal: I'd been using mainly countersteer to turn and leaned my shoulders over enough to keep me balanced. This also helps explain why I was losing traction over the weekend: I was causing the bike (and me) to lean way more than was necessary for the speed & turns *if I had been shifting my weight better* -- I've got 1/2" chicken strips -- and that amount of bike lean probably is another major culprit (for my original post).

After your posts I started trying to turn and keep the bike nearly vertical, just to see what you were talking about and to see if I could do it. This meant that sometimes before a turn my body was entirely off the side except for one cheek. Turns out that doing this allows me to go through the turns with *much* more control and *much* faster than I'd been able to before. *And* since most of my 'turning control' experience had been from countersteering I've now got a *ton* of room for control in the turn. I even started shifting my weight in the turn to make adjustments so I can play weight shift against countersteer as necessary.

FWIW, I think one thing that's been crucial for this is having developed more leg / knee strength since I started riding and now that makes moving around much easier than it was at the start. (I'm 40, not in good shape and overweight.)

ucb, for how much you're countersteering, you may be doing more than you think. I found that to shift my weight to the right and continue going straight I have to countersteer left -- i.e. pull back on the right grip -- and this minor amount of effort is hidden in the effort applied to pull myself over when I have weight on the bars. (My bike's a standard.) When I have almost no weight on the bars, I can tell I'm countersteering.

--

To describe what I now think is happening when I'm weight-shifting before a right turn, it seems like:

-- Before turn
Pull the right grip and pull my body right with legs and arms.
> Bike leans left.
> Body shifts right.
> Center of Gravity of bike and rider combined (CoG) not leaned (i.e. above contact patches).
> (Front wheel is turned right? Has to be if I pulled the right grip?)
> Going straight

-- Starting turn (assuming I shifted the perfect amount)
'Release the pull' on the right grip.
> Bike stands up.
> Body stays shifted right.
> CoG leans right.
> (Front wheel straight?)
> Right turn (with the amount of turn increasing as the push is 'released' and the CoG leans)

-- Adjusting for more turn (I, primarily countersteering)
Push the right grip.
> Bike leans right.
> Body stays shifted right but there are minor movements of head & shoulders to stay balanced.
> CoG leans further right.
> (Front wheel left?)
> Sharper right turn

-- Adjusting for more turn (II, primarily weight shift)
Shift weight further right. (Probably with very slight push on right grip?)
> Bike leans right.
> Body shifts further right.
> CoG leans further right.
> (Front wheel very slightly to the left?)
> Sharper right turn

-- Ending turn (I)
Simultaneously 1) release any right grip push and 2) pull weight left to above the bike's centerline with legs and arms.
> Bike stands up.
> Body shifts to above the bike.
> CoG returns to above the contact patches.
> (Front wheel straight)
> Going straight

-- Ending turn (II, say for a double-apex turn)
Release any right grip push and then pull the right grip
> Bike stands up then leans left.
> Body stays shifted right.
> CoG returns to above the contact patches.
> (Front wheel goes straight then right?)
> Going straight

--

Does this make sense to anyone? Does it sound right?

 

[ucb]

ucb, for how much you're countersteering, you may be doing more than you think. I found that to shift my weight to the right and continue going straight I have to countersteer left -- i.e. pull back on the right grip -- and this minor amount of effort is hidden in the effort applied to pull myself over when I have weight on the bars. (My bike's a standard.) When I have almost no weight on the bars, I can tell I'm countersteering.

I'm actually feeling like im doing the opposite. When I'm completely off the bike and light on the bars, I cant really remember if I'm actually giving input to the bars or not, I get the bike to turn tighter or go wide with body position alone. The only time I can remember consciously countersteerting is when I first dip into my lean. Now I MAY very easily be countersteering more as I push the bike away from me as I'm getting off teh bike and into a corner, but I can't register if this is actually occurring or not

And I lean plenty, I have 0 chicken strips and was scrapping boot in a few corners. It perplexes me what exactly is going on and I need to figure it out before I wad it lol

 

[Karbon]

nm

 

[mosquito]

nm

?

--

ucb, yeah, sounds like we've been doing it completely differently and each only 'seeing part of the story'. It got me thinkin'. )

Interesting thing about the chicken strips though: now I think I could make them nearly 2" wide if I wanted to.

 

[ucb]

heh..well on the street I don't get all the way to the edges of the tires

My goal is to keep the bike as upright as possible at ALL times. So on the street at sane speeds, I never see the edge of the tire . But on the track I was leaning plenty (while still being off the bike), but not completely sure how I was accomplishing such lean angles. Was I subconsciously countersteering or was it purely body positioning

 

[Karbon]

?

--

ucb, yeah, sounds like we've been doing it completely differently and each only 'seeing part of the story'. It got me thinkin'. )

Interesting thing about the chicken strips though: now I think I could make them nearly 2" wide if I wanted to.

i misread a post and commented. then deleted.

also +1 to what ucb said.

 

[Lovedoc]

The countersteering is done when you initiate the turn. While leaned over, you can hold or adjust your arc/line with the throttle, or altering your center of gravity, among other things. With slight positive throttle and a constant radius turn, little or NO bar effort is needed to maintain the turn, and you are not countersteering at this point. Try to avoid a lot of pulling on the bars: it leads to upsetting the suspension. Your body can be moved round on the bike for the most part with your legs, using the footpegs and tank as contact points. Waaay smoother.

 

[DocWong]

Well done, sounds like you're learning and analyzing what you're doing along with a little bit of experimenting.

Sounds like you already are, but I'd like to reiterate riding no faster than your skill level allows and leave yourself a bit of cushion by always knowing that you can go faster for a certain corner. If you feel you're, like wow, going fast and cannot go faster, then I'd say click down a couple of notches.

That and get some solid basics under your belt. Besides riding with some knowledgeable riders, I picked up Code's Twist of the Wrist 1, read a chapter and then did a ride applying that info. I did that thru the whole book and found it extremely helpful. If fact I modeled my Doc Wong Riding Clinic techniques that way, doing one skill at a time.

I look forward to your future posts on how you're doing.

Last night I rode to Alice's on 35 and then back on 84 and Alpine road and noticed a different feeling, but I'm not sure what it is. Am I doing this right? Am I being on the verge of a low-side? Something else?

In the past few days I've been trying to lean more and more carefully measure out the amount of countersteer while in turns. Before now I think I've been more vertical and have been leaning the bike more than my body.

I'm getting more consistent in getting a good entry speed, lean and countersteer to the apex. When that's been good I'm rolling on the throttle harder as I come out of the turn and think I'm giving a bit more countersteer. Sometimes when I do it harder it my rear end feels like it scoots to the outside just a bit and it feels a little rough. It doesn't feel out of control though and through the end of the turn it seems like I finished quickly and am precisely where I should be.

It's a new feeling, but I don't know if I'm just now starting to notice it, or if it's more dangerous than it feels, or if it just should feel that way.

Thoughts?

 

[PhaTeLeSS]

Sounds like you're getting the hang of it. Keep playing with your tire pressure, too, as even 2-3 psi can make quite a difference.

 

[acer66]

I started to do "actively" counter steering into turns this weekend and I was like holy crap does the bike falls fast into a turns