Figure 8 box practice ends in tears

[RhythmRider]

Note: I know this is pretty long, so there's quick notes at the bottom

My bike has been in need of a fresh front tire for some time now. The sides of that tire are completely bald from a month of cornering out on Mines rd, but there's still a thin layer of nice, soft rubber on it, and the middle is more than fine, so I have been riding it thinking it's OK as long as I don't try to corner hard on it. I have new tires, but lately money's been really tight, and I didn't think I could spare the 20 bucks to get the tire mounted.

I'm trying to become a rider coach for the MSF, so I brought some cones out to the church parking lot down the street from my house to practice my slow speed maneuvering. The parking lot is practically empty, but there's dust and debris on a lot of the pavement, and even fragmented rocks everywhere, but I like this parking lot because it's close by, it's big, and it's usually empty.

So I picked a spot with no rocks and used my cones to set up a rectangle similar to the one the MSF uses at their range. I don't know if it was the same width as the one they use, but it felt tight. At first I couldn't make the turns, but after a little warm-up around the parking lot without cones, I found I could make the first turn (left) every time. Going across the box and making the second turn (right) to complete the figure 8 was giving me trouble, though. I just couldn't get the bike turned all the way. I realized that I was able to make the first turn because I was using the entrance of the rectangle as a reference point. So I decided to make a similar reference point on the opposite side of the box for the second turn. I completed the first turn easily and brought the bike across the rectangle and into position for the second turn in the figure 8. I turned my head, spotted my reference point, and turned the bike, and as the bars reached full lock, the front tire slid out, and the bike landed on its side with me crouched over it. I picked up the bike and assessed the damage: right mirror and front brake lever snapped off, everything else fine.

So mistake #1 was not replacing my front tire like I should have, which actually ended up costing me more money since now I have to replace the brake lever and mirror.

Mistake #2 was picking a dusty, debris-filled parking lot just because it was close instead of looking for a cleaner one.

As far as my actual input on the bike, I followed my basic instincts of how I handle a slow speed turn. I slow down with the rear brake and keep my foot over it so I can use it if I need to, pull the clutch into the friction zone, shift my weight onto the outside peg, and turn the bike slightly so that I can spot my reference point easier, then when I've locked onto my reference point, I allow the bike to turn tighter until it reaches the correct angle. Usually, when I have locked onto my reference point with my eyes, I don't have to worry about the bike tipping over. For some magical reason, it's much easier to work the clutch, throttle, and rear brake once I'm looking where I want to go.

The pavement where I fell wasn't much different from the pavement where I made my successful left turns, so I don't know if the pavement had much to do with it. The tire certainly showed signs of having slid (not to mention I heard it slide), so it wasn't just me losing balance and dropping the bike. I guess the rubber was just too thin to conform to the pavement properly. And I could have put more of my weight over the rear wheel. I was sitting near the front of seat, as I tend to do on that bike since sitting near the back makes it difficult to reach the bars as well as I'd like.

Conclusions? The thin, worn out sides of the tire and the less than ideal pavement decreased the amount of traction I had available, and I guess the amount of weight on the front tire combined with the force of turning was enough to exceed the available traction, but ultimately, I am responsible for choosing the conditions that I ride in, and my own judgment is at fault.


QUICK NOTES:
I was too stubborn to change my front tire after it was beyond toasted, went out to a dirty parking lot to practice slow figure eights, and *drum roll please* had a front end slide in which my front brake lever and right mirror were snapped off, costing my dumb ass more than I would have had to pay to install the front tire, which is conveniently sitting 10 feet from me in my room right now, and I promise I'll never do it again

 

[hitman5532]

lesson learned?

 

[RhythmRider]

lesson learned?

We'll see. I am stubborn, after all.

 

[ucb]

So there was ZERO user error? 100% tire and conditions?

After hearing and feeling signs of a skid, continuing at the same (or even faster perhaps) pace? Instead of backing off and perhaps packing up and heading to the shop to get that front tire put on?

 

[RhythmRider]

I'm not saying I am perfect, but I don't think I did anything that would cause a fall under normal conditions. The conditions were less than normal, and I did not have the skill to compensate for that. If the surface was better and the condition of my front tire was better, I think that would have covered my mistake, which I believe was incorrect body position (too much weight on the front). I am totally open to criticism and ideas, though, because I want to learn. Any input on what I could do to get better?

 

[scout]

Going too fast, not the tires.

 

[HOTRODHAIRY]

Shoulda backed it in around the first cone.That would have given you a straight shot around the second cone.Spun up the rear on exit and slid around cone #2.Front tire traction wouldn't have mattered at that point because you would have been riding the rear tire.Isn't that how Mines is done?You know I'm kidding.At least you're OK and the bike doesn't sound too bad.

 

[ucb]

I'm not saying I am perfect, but I don't think I did anything that would cause a fall under normal conditions. .....Any input on what I could do to get better?

Well I am a new rider as well, and all I can say is you can never blame the conditions, you are the one in control of the motorcycle, and not just that, in the real world, the "normal" conditions are ever changing, So that doesnt just mean not riding outside of your own limits, but riding WELL within them, such that if the conditions are non-ideal that you have a margin of safety

And if you KNEW your tire was toast, and you knew the parking lot was dusty, and you knew you had already broke traction, well then those are all signs to either slow down even more or perhaps just call it a day and go home.

I think some accidents are unavoidable, they are called accidents for a reason, but in this case it was easily avoidable IMO.

 

[Vector13]

Well I am a new rider as well, and all I can say is you can never blame the conditions, you are the one in control of the motorcycle, and not just that, in the real world, the "normal" conditions are ever changing, So that doesnt just mean not riding outside of your own limits, but riding WELL within them, such that if the conditions are non-ideal that you have a margin of safety

And if you KNEW your tire was toast, and you knew the parking lot was dusty, and you knew you had already broke traction, well then those are all signs to either slow down even more or perhaps just call it a day and go home.

I think some accidents are unavoidable, they are called accidents for a reason, but in this case it was easily avoidable IMO.

+1

 

[RhythmRider]

I think some accidents are unavoidable, they are called accidents for a reason, but in this case it was easily avoidable IMO.

For sure. You're absolutely right! Great attitude for a new rider, too. Edit: I just noticed an addition to your original post. There were no signs that it was going to slide. The tire was working great up until that particular moment. I had no way of saving the slide once it started. Speed was not a factor in the sense of most front end slides... I was going about 5mph. Didn't use any front brake... nothing. The thing just slid out from under me. And after careful thinking, I take back what I said about my body position being a mistake. I steered the bike too quickly.

Going too fast, not the tires.

You may want to re-think that theory.

Shoulda backed it in around the first cone.That would have given you a straight shot around the second cone.Spun up the rear on exit and slid around cone #2.Front tire traction wouldn't have mattered at that point because you would have been riding the rear tire.Isn't that how Mines is done?You know I'm kidding.At least you're OK and the bike doesn't sound too bad.

Dude, that sounds way cooler than what I was doing! Can you teach me how to do that? It's funny... we've never met each other, but we ride the same roads and know the same people. I feel like I know you.

 

[scout]

How fast would you estimate he was going and how fast do you think he should've been going.

I'm assuming an experienced rider would slide the front out in the above. A newbie would lean too far and drop the bike because of going too slow, but the front is not sliding in that situation.

The box turn demands slow, no lean, balance control (counter-balance). Bigger bikes have trouble here and in that little S curvy thingy.

 

[RhythmRider]

I'm assuming an experienced rider would slide the front out in the above. A newbie would lean too far and drop the bike because of going too slow, but the front is not sliding in that situation.

The box turn demands slow, no lean, balance control (counter-balance). Bigger bikes have trouble here and in that little S curvy thingy.

Leaning the bike is the only thing that allows it to make those tight turns.

 

[tzrider]

Aaron,

You mention that your bars were at full lock. If that's really the case, this may have contributed to a sudden traction loss. A steering head that turns freely is part of the suspension of the bike. As the front tire tracks bumps while leaned over, the trail will make the tire wiggle back and forth to follow contours. If the steering is at the stop, the wheel can't do that. In a situation where you were reasonably close to the limits of traction for the conditions, this could be enough to cause a sudden traction loss.

Also, do you recall what you were doing with the throttle right before the front pushed? If the steering is at the stop and you're trying to hold the arc or even tighten it up a bit while on positive throttle, I could see the front pushing.

 

[HOTRODHAIRY]

No, not if going very slow, that's where you need to counter balance. With bigger bikes, going to slow with a mild lean produces the drop.

Been there.

Some expert riders will start the rectangle turn leaned, since they go in with a little speed, but if they are running out of room to complete the turn, they stand the bike up w/brakes, counter balance and normal turn with a touch of roll at the very end to save a drop.

Or, if you stunt, you can do a 180 inside about three feet, front up. Looks good and clean.

Watch the police when they do the cones.They counterlean.They keep their body upright while leaning the bike.Your definition isn't quite right.It's like riding a dirtbike without kicking the foot out.Those are the guys to learn from.

 

[rbm]

RhythmRider and HOTRODHAIRY, I hope you guys realize you're arguing with "Scout".

 

[scout]

Watch the police when they do the cones.They counterlean.They keep their body upright while leaning the bike.Your definition isn't quite right.It's like riding a dirtbike without kicking the foot out.Those are the guys to learn from.

Yes, counter lean same as counter balance.

 

[scout]

RhythmRider and HOTRODHAIRY, I hope you guys realize you're arguing with "Scout".

Smart ass.

 

[Raven0510]

With all that money in your avatar, you should have no problem fixing that bike back up

I was thinking the same thing. I learned from previous experiences that it is always far more expensive and painful to put off maintenance etc. You really cannot prepare for every situation, all you can do is handle the variables in your control and train yourself how to react.

 

[J-Boat]

Glad you're OK...

I used to practice figure 8's too. I would start with big circles and progressively get smaller and smaller. It's really good practice and helps with slow speed maneuvering...

 

[Enchanter]

For what it's worth:
I see this type of crash all the time in the u-turn box. I'd bet $ that you were going too fast and leaning too far. It wasn't the tire.