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Good beginner drills?

aminalmutha said:
Sorry I don't agree. I think it's a misnomer and a lack of either skill or education that one would never brake while turning unless it is an emergency. I do it all the time. Of course you shouldn't ham fist it while cranked over but plz don't tell people to not brake into a turn.

The details of how when why etc to do it are too much for me to type here and now but it is an integral part of riding. Knowing how to do so has saved my ass more than once and also helps me ride smoother and more rapidly while being relatively safe.
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I don't think he was trying to say that you should NEVER do it but rather that it will always be slower than if you were to just enter the corner at the proper speed to exit with maximum drive. First rule of riding "once the throttle is cracked on in the turn it is rolled on continuously and smoothly throughout the remainder of the turn" Braking mid corner directly violates this. Braking into a corner is a different story and is simply trail breaking which is an accepted race technique but really shouldn't be performed on the road with steel brakes. *as opposed to carbon like in GP*
 
Trail braking is not a "track only" method and is no more dangerous on the street than anything else. It's really the smoothest and most efficient way through just about any turn. It's often not taught to beginners because it requires smooth and conscientious application of the brakes, which most beginners are not able to do right off.
 
danate said:
Trail braking is not a "track only" method and is no more dangerous on the street than anything else. It's really the smoothest and most efficient way through just about any turn. It's often not taught to beginners because it requires smooth and conscientious application of the brakes, which most beginners are not able to do right off.
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:thumbup Doing ones controls with finesse (safety) is a fine skill, that draws on a lot of work, in a variety of conditions/surfaces/types of road. (paved and dirt/gravel)

Some riders don't do anything but repeat day one, over and over, for their entire riding life.

Others do pretty much everything that can be done... And the skill builds.

Makes terms-phrases mean different things to different riders. Depending on their background.
 
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auditude said:
Building off of thumpers suggestion; a few months ago a group of us gathered at a local college lot and set up cone patterns and drills. It was great practice and skill development.

I'm in the east bay and would love to do this again, soon. Nate and I were just texting about this earlier today and I'm sure there'd be quite a few attendees.
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I'd love to get in on this if I'm still around (I only in the Bay for another month or so). If there's an email chain or something to get in on, my address is "mike" at the domain in my sig.

Also, big ups to Nate for hitting me up via PMs and offering to come out and offer tips and feedback on my riding, as well as a few exercises to keep me going. It's been really helpful!
 
It's my secret crush on Nate ;)

Actually, the slow speed drills are always fun to practice amongst those who can help pick up the bike :laughing
 
EEL said:
Its saved your ass.. Hmm sounds like an emergency situation. I'm not against doing it. It's just a bad habit to get into for non emergency situations. That said, beginners shouldn't be braking to turns in the first place.

Perhaps you missed the title of this thread where it says beginner drills. That's ok.

Beginner drills should teach proper technique not just emergency situations. Anyone who is trail braking on the street is asking for trouble in my opinion.

You're entitled to your own.
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n00b. You forgot the part where I said I do it all the time. I do it ALL. THE. TIME. Not every single frickin' corner, mind you, but every single ride, there is a situation where it is behooves me to utilize this skill. Brake in, throttle out. I've avoided having an emergency because my mad skillz are honed enough to be able to do heavy braking whilst turning.

Telling n00bz to never brake mid-corner unless its an emergency is a great disservice to said n00b an makes the person saying it sound like a n00b themselves.

To me, it's like saying "had ta lay 'er down" or "the front brake'll kill ye" type crap. Archaic, tribal and wrong.
 
gcowan11 said:
I don't think he was trying to say that you should NEVER do it but rather that it will always be slower than if you were to just enter the corner at the proper speed to exit with maximum drive. First rule of riding "once the throttle is cracked on in the turn it is rolled on continuously and smoothly throughout the remainder of the turn" Braking mid corner directly violates this. Braking into a corner is a different story and is simply trail breaking which is an accepted race technique but really shouldn't be performed on the road with steel brakes. *as opposed to carbon like in GP*
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Wrong in every aspect. WTF do carbon brakes have to do with anything? Do you not think that Superbikes, which do not have CF brakes, are not capable of trail braking? Do you understand how CF brakes are different from steel?

I trail brake with drum brakes. I've trail braked huge touring bikes down to 100cc tiddlers.

No, trail braking is not necessarily slower than not braking at all.

Granted, a brand new fresh rider shouldn't worry quite so much about this right off the bat, but PLEASE don't feed this kind of nonsense to n00bz.
 
aminalmutha said:
n00b. You forgot the part where I said I do it all the time. I do it ALL. THE. TIME. Not every single frickin' corner, mind you, but every single ride, there is a situation where it is behooves me to utilize this skill. Brake in, throttle out.
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People should learn to brake in a turn sooner than many do, but braking while turning adds a couple of complications that new riders may not be prepared for:

1) The bike tends to stand up on the brakes. If the rider isn't ready for this, they will initially run wide before the bike slows much.

2) If the rider doesn't understand the "circle of traction" concept, it may be a little soon to introduce it while they are still trying to get comfortable with the basics of applying the brakes.

That said, for a lot of folks, it shouldn't be a super long process to reach the point where braking in a turn is a reasonable thing to learn and play with.
 
Granted, I don't think a brand new rider should be focusing on aggressive trail braking right off the bat. However, I don't think people should be instilling fear of braking whilst turning either.

Definitely: focus on the basics first.
Keep in mind: there is a ton to learn to become an expert. Few ever actually become experts, but it doesn't mean you ever stop learning.



And last, plz don't mention CF brakes if you don't really understand them. :twofinger
 
aminalmutha said:
Granted, I don't think a brand new rider should be focusing on aggressive trail braking right off the bat. However, I don't think people should be instilling fear of braking whilst turning either.

Definitely: focus on the basics first.
Keep in mind: there is a ton to learn to become an expert. Few ever actually become experts, but it doesn't mean you ever stop learning.



And last, plz don't mention CF brakes if you don't really understand them. :twofinger
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You only need carbon fiber brakes if you use super sticky tires...

And try not to be so hostile to the "n00bz." This is an educational forum and we're all here to learn.

I agree trail braking should be taught early on, but in most beginner classes, we still see a lot of crashes just under normal straight line braking and from hitting the brakes in a turn out of panic (leading to rapid stand-up or front washing out). It takes a more one-on-one approach to determine when someone is ready to try trail braking.
 
Sorry, everyone was new at some point, not trying to be hostile. Just a little irritated at some bad information from experienced riders, apparently. :D

I understand the signal:noise ratio can be really bad on t3h innan3tz, but I very often hear really bad advice in moto shops, out and about, at work, etc. and it makes me cringe. And I've seen people take really bad advice and run with it and it doesn't turn out well.

That's all. Everyone is different, everyone learns at a different pace. Best way to get good at something is by doing it a lot.

:party
 
I understand your frustration. All you can do is try to correct it and encourage people to go out there and actually learn, instead of repeating nonsense they hear from others.

You can also look at becoming a CMSP instructor if you want to try and help people get a good start with riding. I have found it very rewarding and it has given me some insight on how people learn to ride and what methods work best.
 
As a relative newbie, the abundance of anecdotal garbage one gets inundated with is extremely frustrating. So many opinions and so little data . . .
 
zixaq said:
As a relative newbie, the abundance of anecdotal garbage one gets inundated with is extremely frustrating. So many opinions and so little data . . .
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Oddly enough, a lot of it originates from sound principles taken a little too far by well-meaning people who may not have thought it through from end to end. An example:

Someone learns that a bike is most stable in a corner and offers the most traction it is capable of when the rider is gently rolling on the gas. They might also recall being told to get their braking done before the turn entry in a class. The two ideas can be related, in that setting the entry speed early allows the rider to get back on the gas earlier in the turn. From a "optimize traction" standpoint, it's a good approach.

Somehow, this morphs into "trailbraking is a bad idea" or "you should never brake in a turn." Sometimes this is a rider thinking that if you depart from creating optimum traction conditions, you're going to crash. The truth is that less than optimal traction is often plenty and thousands of riders get away with riding that way all the time. What the guy who never brakes in a turn doesn't learn is how to brake in a turn when the need arises.

So, this is a case where a little bit of correct info gets extrapolated into something that does more harm than good.
 
nicely stated sir :thumbup
 
tzrider said:
Oddly enough, a lot of it originates from sound principles taken a little too far by well-meaning people who may not have thought it through from end to end. An example:

Someone learns that a bike is most stable in a corner and offers the most traction it is capable of when the rider is gently rolling on the gas. They might also recall being told to get their braking done before the turn entry in a class. The two ideas can be related, in that setting the entry speed early allows the rider to get back on the gas earlier in the turn. From a "optimize traction" standpoint, it's a good approach.

Somehow, this morphs into "trailbraking is a bad idea" or "you should never brake in a turn." Sometimes this is a rider thinking that if you depart from creating optimum traction conditions, you're going to crash. The truth is that less than optimal traction is often plenty and thousands of riders get away with riding that way all the time. What the guy who never brakes in a turn doesn't learn is how to brake in a turn when the need arises.

So, this is a case where a little bit of correct info gets extrapolated into something that does more harm than good.
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That's a good point, and a question of which methods are best for new riders. Should a new rider try to understand the "more advanced" concepts early on and then start integrating it into their riding as they feel comfortable? Or, should they focus on one step at a time and not worry about more advanced concepts until they have mastered the more simple ones (such as getting all your braking done before the turn). I think for the purpose of being the most well rounded rider you can be, the former is best. For the sake of safety and reducing incidents while training, the latter may be better. I think ideally there is a balance somewhere in between.

Either way, I think parking lots are the BEST place to begin learning both basic and advanced concepts as the speeds are lower as well as the consequences of a mistake.
 
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