Guy shot in SF 24 times???

[sanjuro]

On a different note, I wonder how the neighborhood of Bayview, really views Mario Woods and the SFPD, and how this contrasts with the rest of the city.

Woods was a convicted felon who already slashed someone. I suppose the problem for the Bayview community is while he was a bad guy, any of the good people who live there could be treated the same by the police.

On the other hand, I find it sad on how neighborhoods like Bayview are created: physically isolated by highways and hills, heavy industry is centered there, and then the richer surrounding neighbors ignore them until the issue-of-the-day happens.

 

[JakesKTM]

More force options also means more opportunity to make the wrong decision. Use the wrong tool, shit goes bad, lose your ass.

It goes both ways. Just sayin.....

It's not all you. Every non-lethal force deployment scenario I've been involved with involved multiple officers on scene.

By myself, yea the gun's coming out. Multiple officers on scene, not necessarily if the suspect is not armed with a firearm.

The snap to firearm deployment has become the norm not the exception.

 

[JakesKTM]

Isn't one of the main objectives with LEOs, is to not take on anyone? Take on, as in hand to hand combat, because, you don't know who you are taking on. You have no idea if that guy is Marvin Milquetoast, Randy Couture, or Roseanne Barr. I don't care who you are, there is always someone out there that can tear off your head and shit in your neck. I watched a guy I know, pretty tough guy, knew how to fight, get the shit beat out of him, by a guy he started the fight with, the guy just pounded his ass into the ground, he never even put a finger on him, finally, the guy stopped, looked at him on the ground and asked him if he'd had enough yet.

Are you serious that you would try to disarm a guy with a knife if you were wearing some armor? Really serious? I don't think that would even be an option for the police.

You are talking hand to hand one on one. I would never attempt challenging an assailant alone even with that gear.

I was trained for dynamic entry for executing warrants, both arrest and search. Training a team of professionals for edge weapon take-down is already in practice, These ballistic suits or similar models are deployed in prisons. I don't see why swat or any other tactical team could not be trained in this by those who already do it.

Yes with training and as a team I would actually LOVE to get in on that action.

 

[sanjuro]

http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/openforum/article/San-Francisco-police-don-t-need-Tasers-4304521.php

Further, it is a myth that Tasers will be used instead of guns. A 2009 study by the National Institute of Justice found that Tasers "do not appear to have much of an effect on officer use of firearms in force incidents." SFPD's proposed policy does not limit Tasers to circumstances in which deadly force (i.e., a gun) would be permissible. Rather, the draft policy contemplates that Tasers can be used to "mak[e] subjects easier to take into custody or subdue." Allowing Tasers to be used as a compliance weapon can lead to over-use and unnecessary use, which, as we've seen in other cities, results in costly lawsuits and community outrage.

Where was Commissioner Angela Chen during all of this?

 

[JakesKTM]

So then should they carry it around in their trunks? Change into it when they get a knife call and change back out after? Or should they wear it around all day?

Depends on the jurisdiction and resources. Rural officers typically carry tactical gear with them, yes. They also drive SUV's and have the space.

In a standoff, typically you have the ability to stall and deploy phsychological tactics as teams ready to position.

In a large jurisdiction, it is possible to have dedicated multidisciplinary teams on standby.

So to answer your question, yes.

 

[Shaggy]

It's not all you. Every non-lethal force deployment scenario I've been involved with involved multiple officers on scene.

By myself, yea the gun's coming out. Multiple officers on scene, not necessarily if the suspect is not armed with a firearm.

The snap to firearm deployment has become the norm not the exception.

Disregarding the fact that SFPD deployed less lethal tactics....

With 4 officers in turtle gear dog piling the suspect, how do you then deploy lethal force if necessary? From a safe distance and risk striking your partners? From up close and put the unprotected officer in harm's way?

There are too many ways IMO for the Turtle Shell gear to go wrong. Distance is the safest play with a subject armed with an edged weapon.

I'm pretty bummed the Taser XREP never caught on:

[youtube]aBYtUCSJAmw[/youtube]

 

[corndog67]

You are talking hand to hand one on one. I would never attempt challenging an assailant alone even with that gear.

I was trained for dynamic entry for executing warrants, both arrest and search. Training a team of professionals for edge weapon take-down is already in practice, These ballistic suits or similar models are deployed in prisons. I don't see why swat or any other tactical team could not be trained in this by those who already do it.

Yes with training and as a team I would actually LOVE to get in on that action.

Love to? You would actually want to get into a knife fight with someone you have no idea what their training is? I hate to say this, and I say it with all due respect, but that sounds like ego, or bravado talking. You know as well as I do, that there are some guys out there that will take on, and win, against 4 trained guys. Not many, but they are out there. If you don't believe that, and you might not, you just haven't seen it yet.

I don't think that is a realistic attitude that a cop should have. You want to get into a fight with a knife? What if he sticks it into your neck, will you have an attitude change right before you faded away?

 

[JakesKTM]

Love to? You would actually want to get into a knife fight with someone you have no idea what their training is? I hate to say this, and I say it with all due respect, but that sounds like ego, or bravado talking. You know as well as I do, that there are some guys out there that will take on, and win, against 4 trained guys. Not many, but they are out there. If you don't believe that, and you might not, you just haven't seen it yet.

I don't think that is a realistic attitude that a cop should have. You want to get into a fight with a knife? What if he sticks it into your neck, will you have an attitude change right before you faded away?

Some guys in my experience, enjoy the adrenaline of dynamic entry and close in combat. I am one of them. Yes, there are many officers who are professionals who enjoy the rush of higher stakes take down situations. Some do not. Each ability has it's place on the force, but I've been there and can say given the commitment of fellow team members and professional training, it would be my pleasure to take down a knife suspect and keep the community safe while saving lives.

You might think it's better just to shoot and kill someone. I know there are alternatives.

As for getting stuck in the neck, well you don't sign up for being a police officer to sit in your car and knit sweaters.
Which reminds me of the story of a local attorney who got stabbed with a spoon while visiting an inmate at teh county jail.

Shit happens.

 

[Dug]

Disregarding the fact that SFPD deployed less lethal tactics....

With 4 officers in turtle gear dog piling the suspect, how do you then deploy lethal force if necessary? From a safe distance and risk striking your partners? From up close and put the unprotected officer in harm's way?

There are too many ways IMO for the Turtle Shell gear to go wrong. Distance is the safest play with a subject armed with an edged weapon.

I'm pretty bummed the Taser XREP never caught on:

[youtube]aBYtUCSJAmw[/youtube]

We can look to the civilian lead SF Police Commission which is staffed by handed picked individuals chosen by the SF BoS and Mayor. It's the mayor (past and present) and SF BoS who have decided that tasers are inhumane (as opposed to say baton strikes) and so not to be authorized for use by the SFPD, i.e. its a political reason.

In the end the cops are going to use the tools they are allowed to use and in this case it was pepper spray, then a bean bag round, none of which accomplished the desired result (probably due to his heavy jacket with the beanbag round) with a suspect who was wanted for already stabbing a woman and who we now know was a gangbanger with a long record of violence.

 

[JakesKTM]

Disregarding the fact that SFPD deployed less lethal tactics....

With 4 officers in turtle gear dog piling the suspect, how do you then deploy lethal force if necessary? From a safe distance and risk striking your partners? From up close and put the unprotected officer in harm's way?

There are too many ways IMO for the Turtle Shell gear to go wrong. Distance is the safest play with a subject armed with an edged weapon.

I'm pretty bummed the Taser XREP never caught on:

[youtube]aBYtUCSJAmw[/youtube]

IIRC it was the device being fired from a shotgun that killed it for most departments. If they come up with a deployment device that isn't a shotgun it might stick. I personally like it.

 

[Shaggy]

IIRC it was the device being fired from a shotgun that killed it for most departments. If they come up with a deployment device that isn't a shotgun it might stick. I personally like it.

They claim it was because they introduced it to the market during the financial crisis in 2008 and sales were poor because LE agencies were too busy laying cops off and slashing pensions to worry about buying new equipment.

 

[Johndicezx9]

Doh....

 

[JakesKTM]

They claim it was because they introduced it to the market during the financial crisis in 2008 and sales were poor because LE agencies were too busy laying cops off and slashing pensions to worry about buying new equipment.

This too I'm sure. I was completely off LEO duty by 2003, and out of the Courts by 2009. So the only connections I maintained (and still do) are the Rangemaster and firearms instructors - which is where I got my info. I was also told that departments are returning to 9mm ammo from .40. Off topic there sorry

 

[bojangle]

If you walk toward somebody with a knife, and that lerson is holding a gun, I expect the person who brought a knife to a gun fight to get shot. I wouldn't do anything different, and I don't expect the cops to do anything different.

Non-lethal methods are for when a suspect has a knife and is not coming at you, or somebody else that he can hurt.

Yup! . If you have the opportunity to try it, like SFPD did in this case, then great. But less lethal is never a substitute for deadly force.

The only thing I understand is how polarized you and most officers become as a result of your occupation, which frankly does you no service whatsoever.

So you think patrol is the justification here? PD, SO, DOJ, Parole, Probation, CHP, etc. etc... it's all LEO with the same POST training for the most part when it comes to firearms and use of force. The difference is jurisdiction and department policy. Do you think less of anyone not on patrol?

Work experience matters MUCH more than training. A title of a peace officer, without patrol experience, is worlds apart from those who work the streets, gain lots of experience making critical decisions on their feet, and gain lots of real world experience in dealing with resistive and combative people.. Not everyone is cut out for that. Plenty of intelligent book smart people could pass an academy curriculum with flying colors, yet be a disaster when it comes to thinking on their feet, under pressure, and applying what they know. Your post reads like it's from someone with little or no patrol experience.

More force options also means more opportunity to make the wrong decision. Use the wrong tool, shit goes bad, lose your ass.

It goes both ways. Just sayin.....

That's what happened to Johannes Mehserle. Good example of what can happen to an officer with limited patrol experience.

Isn't one of the main objectives with LEOs, is to not take on anyone? Take on, as in hand to hand combat, because, you don't know who you are taking on. You have no idea if that guy is Marvin Milquetoast, Randy Couture, or Roseanne Barr. I don't care who you are, there is always someone out there that can tear off your head and shit in your neck. I watched a guy I know, pretty tough guy, knew how to fight, get the shit beat out of him, by a guy he started the fight with, the guy just pounded his ass into the ground, he never even put a finger on him, finally, the guy stopped, looked at him on the ground and asked him if he'd had enough yet.

Are you serious that you would try to disarm a guy with a knife if you were wearing some armor? Really serious? I don't think that would even be an option for the police.

The suspects who I've dealt with who put up the biggest fights aren't who you'd think they'd be either.

They claim it was because they introduced it to the market during the financial crisis in 2008 and sales were poor because LE agencies were too busy laying cops off and slashing pensions to worry about buying new equipment.

That would have to be the biggest reason by far. Agencies aren't investing in any new equipment when jobs are on the line.

 

[Shaggy]

Do you think that may be part of the perception problem that police are becoming too militarized as well?

On the flip side in regards to use of force, this happened locally a while back:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/10/csumb-officer-fired-taser_n_6298294.html

It might appear that way to some. Some see this as a military style weapon:

Ermahgerd Gernerd Lernchur!!!!1

I see a tool used to deploy 40mm foam baton rounds as a means to stop violent suspects before resorting to deadly force. Having a Sage on scene might have worked better than a Rem 870 with beanbag rounds. Who knows? But it's hard for an agency as large as SFPD to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to equip their officers with such tools.

When I think of "Militarization of Police", I see more of the complaining about use of armored vehicles during recent mass casualty incidents that have been highly publicised. Boston Marathon bombing, San Bernardino shooting, etc... To that, I say fuck 'em. I don't see any of the keyboard commandos out there looking for suspects who are armed with large caliber rifles or explosive devices. If that's me, I want to hide behind the largest thickest piece of steel I can find while at the same time trying to locate the suspect.

As for the article you posted, without seeing/hearing the other side (letter written to the officer's agency or actually being there), it's hard to say whether the termination is justified.

I'll tell you though... I have worked with straight up cowards, and it makes me angry just thinking about it. I had an officer jump out of the way to avoid getting involved in a fight while my other partner and I fought with a violent parolee who had an arrest warrant for attempting to set his girlfriend on fire. That officer no longer works in LE either....

 

[Nucking Futs]

Some guys in my experience, enjoy the adrenaline of dynamic entry and close in combat. I am one of them. Yes, there are many officers who are professionals who enjoy the rush of higher stakes take down situations. Some do not. Each ability has it's place on the force, but I've been there and can say given the commitment of fellow team members and professional training, it would be my pleasure to take down a knife suspect and keep the community safe while saving lives.

Say this in a LEO recruiting interview, at any stage of the process, and you can kiss your job prospect goodbye. Municipalities don't hire people with an attitude that a prosecuter can shade as "bloodlust" in the event of an officer involved death. Too much liability to hire wannabe "hero's".

 

[NorCalAthlete]

JakesKTM, you should check out Action Figure Therapy on YouTube...I think you'll like it.

 

[nbean16]

I doubt any cop there ever felt his life was in danger. It wouldn't have been the end of the world if they had to backup a few steps and reaccess as the guy slowly walked towards them.
But the guy was a douche so 90% of the outcome falls on him.

Were his legs broken? Does he not know how to start running?

 

[Blankpage]

Were his legs broken? Does he not know how to start running?

If he had started running that would have been a good time to shoot, but he didn't.
You know its not okay to shoot every criminal thats able to run

 

[bojangle]

If he had started running that would have been a good time to shoot, but he didn't.
You know its not okay to shoot every criminal thats able to run

Do you understand the difference between imminent and immediate? Once he starts running it's probably too late to prevent a stabbing.