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Healthcare and Its Victims, by Luigi Mangione

OK.

You have absolutely no way of knowing how much pain he was in, to start. So really your point is not a point.

Aside from that, the dude literally never said "My back hurts so I'm going to commit murder."
 
tzrider said:
As someone with persistent spine problems, who also rides motorcycles and climbs high into trees to fell them, I can tell you that these activities are possible, even while in pain that makes you wonder if life is worth living.
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^^^
So much this.
I spent 35 years in the automotive industry, while racing cars and motorcycles. I have 3 significant back diagnosis that keep my daily pain number high. I can't sit or lie down for more than 90 minutes at a time. (makes Zoom meetings a bitch)
But, you will still see me on my motorcycle, at the beach with my dog and even on top and under my G/F.
Killing (or even harming) anyone has never crossed my mind.
 
mikev said:
OK.

You have absolutely no way of knowing how much pain he was in, to start. So really your point is not a point.

Aside from that, the dude literally never said "My back hurts so I'm going to commit murder."
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Obviously I disagree. We all just watched the video of him bouncing around enthusiastically yelling at the media, plus we all know his activities the day of the shooting, plus we know he's been travelling around. These do not appear to be the activities of a person in so much pain that they're reasonably driven to murder, same as how no one here has been driven to murder. He just looks like a crazy person that fell in love with the unabomber and found a way to justify murdering someone for his issues. But! None of that means his take on healthcare is wrong. He is not, but people are really bad at separating things, so now they're tied together.
 
I believe folks have burned themselves alive in protest but this assassination is the first time that all eyes have been turned on what the victim stood for vs looking at the individual.
 
First I want to say to gixxerjeff that I can’t imagine how hard it must be to not be able to lie or sit for 90 min. Your strength and how you’ve learned to cope and to persevere is a gift. That really elucidates how pain and the response to it can vary from one person to another. Disabilities are so variable. Ride on!
 
You guys rock. Some thoughtful discussion here.
It could easily go political, but I think we can keep that from happening.
No mention of Pubs or Dems, or any of the characters we have elected or seen appointed, might keep it from going astray.
 
byke said:
Obviously I disagree. We all just watched the video of him bouncing around enthusiastically yelling at the media, plus we all know his activities the day of the shooting, plus we know he's been travelling around. These do not appear to be the activities of a person in so much pain that they're reasonably driven to murder, same as how no one here has been driven to murder. He just looks like a crazy person that fell in love with the unabomber and found a way to justify murdering someone for his issues. But! None of that means his take on healthcare is wrong. He is not, but people are really bad at separating things, so now they're tied together.
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Right. We want our "righteous hero" to be near crippled and striking back in the only way he can! That would help us absolve ourselves of our joy in violent retribution. No such absolution this time around.
 
Yep and I think that's where a lot of defensiveness comes from, don't you dare make me feel bad for wanting something I know I'm not supposed to want.
 
byke said:
No, "they" can't understand that they're not who I'm referring to. It's very natural, people have a super hard time understanding a world outside of their own. Just look how this went, apparently there is no one with debilitating back pain. It's all "I still do stuff and it hurts". Well....some people hurt so much they can't do stuff, no matter what our own experience says.
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I don't understand how you're so wrapped around the axle on this. Should the fact that someone is in pain not be enough reason to receive care? Are you setting the bar at, "Can't function?"
 
Think the position is better clarified in subsequent posts.
 
byke said:
Sure. There is an emotional place where murder becomes viable to an otherwise normal person. Stubbing your toe isn't it. Being paralyzed from a drunk driver might be a gray area. Watching your wife and child be murdered and then shooting the killer in court is totally there. So I'm saying that in the gamut of events/experiences that could drive an otherwise normal person to such extremes where they're literally throwing their entire life away, his back problems weren't there. Further, I think he's a giant pussy for allowing his back problems to take him there.
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None of us know what other experiences may have informed his decision. It might not even be about his back.

Whatever it was, most of us would say it doesn't justify murder. On the other hand, it does make you wonder what it will really take to reform health care in this country.
 
tzrider said:
I don't understand how you're so wrapped around the axle on this. Should the fact that someone is in pain not be enough reason to receive care? Are you setting the bar at, "Can't function?"
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I don't read penor face as invalidating anyone's pain. I think he's just trying to point out that this isn't EXACTLY the Robin Hood fairy tail we all really want it to be.
 
I recall someone telling me a long time ago when I started riding moto's there were only 2 types of motorcyclists out there - those who have gone down and those who will go down. Nothing rings more true now on this forum as I am sure plenty [most] of the people here dealt intimately with the healthcare industry because of our hobby and I am sure the breadth of opinions on that topic is large.

If any good is achieved from having these debates on these topics - I wish it was uniting force to improve how we [moto folks] are treated/viewed in society despite our dangerous hobby choices...
 
byke said:
Obviously I disagree. We all just watched the video of him bouncing around enthusiastically yelling at the media, plus we all know his activities the day of the shooting, plus we know he's been travelling around. These do not appear to be the activities of a person in so much pain that they're reasonably driven to murder, same as how no one here has been driven to murder. He just looks like a crazy person that fell in love with the unabomber and found a way to justify murdering someone for his issues. But! None of that means his take on healthcare is wrong. He is not, but people are really bad at separating things, so now they're tied together.
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You could have saved everyone and yourself a lot of posts if you just said you think he’s an unreasonable person, instead of going on this roundabout bullshit of how his back didn’t hurt enough for a reasonable person to be driven to murder.

Your post is somewhat ironic. You have tied his back pain to the murder more than anyone in the thread, while complaining that people are bad at separating things.
 
I hadn't realized the collective "we" were putting all our eggs into the we-technically-don't-know category. So it's okay to say he's unreasonable, but not that his plight isn't reasonable enough to warrant murder. What would have been the reason for it to be okay to say he's unreasonable? And whatever that reason is, why is it exempt from the we-technically-don't-know category?
 
Noooooo, you don't know whether or not it's reasonable without knowing the reasons why and you yourself said that we don't know what informed his decision. So again, in what manner would it be acceptable to think of him as unreasonable?

And this is all dancing around the point, which is that people like the shooting and don't like the idea of the shooter being an idiot.
 
byke said:
Noooooo, you don't know whether or not it's reasonable without knowing the reasons why and you yourself said that we don't know what informed his decision.
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Unless there is some evidence that Luigi was acting in self defense by shooting a guy in the back with a silenced pistol, we know all we need to to say he was unreasonable.
 
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