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Help with Red Light "Violation"

either your points are too close together or you ride a lot slower than I do. You only made it through the crosswalk on the yellow? You'd have to be going less than 10 mph...
 
Could you explain your photo and dots? Because if you're claiming that the light turned yellow less than two feet from the crosswalk and red in the middle of the crosswalk then you might have a defense on the grounds that the traffic light was malfunctioning. Most lights have more than a one-third of a second yellow.

...errr, what rritterson said.
 
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On a serious note, unless you have a 3rd party eye-witness or video evidence to back your claim. It will be you said vs. cop said trial which is heavily against your favor. Noting that you saw him a block later with flashing lights, it is obvious you're not paying attention. So even your observation of when you entered the intersection is in doubt.

Since you already paid might as well ask for a trial date, then extend it as far as you can.
 
What's this thing about braking in the middle of the turn on red?

I'm a bit confused. As I understand it, you entered the intersection when the light was yellow. Correct? And the light turned red while you were in the intersection. Correct? If so, that does not violate CVC 21453(a) or (b) and it doesn't matter whether you could have braked or not. Is that the Vehicle Code provision that you were cited for?

Here's some of what you need to do:

1) Bring a diagram with you about when the lights turns which color. The one you have is a bit weird. It's usually around 3.5 seconds between yellow and red for a 25 mph street (though legally it can be less).

2) Establish that you entered the intersection on a yellow. Make sure you identify that you were looking at the light as you entered in the intersection. And that you saw the light change from red to yellow when you were already in the intersection.

3) Establish that there were no pedestrians to whom you should have yielded. (subsection (b))

4) Establish facts showing that there were no vehicle approaching that would consistute an immediate hazard.

5) Emphasize to the Court that the burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt, not preponderance of evidence. If its just a he said, she said, you technically should win. That's not how it works in practice, but it's important to remind the Court.

6) Respectfully establish that the office gives out a bunch of tickets, that he can't remember any of the details of this incident other than what's on his ticket, and that he wasn't in a position to watch you and the exact timing of the light at the same time. See if he will admit that it is possible that his memory may be perfect and that the light went red when you were already in the intersection (he won't).

Remember that the more facts you can provide (and less argument -- who cares if the cop treated you like you were a 4 wheeler) as to why you entered on yellow, the better. Facts about speed, distance, time and direction are all helpful. The reason officers are good witnesses is that they lay out facts showing that you committed a violation. Your job is to do the opposite.

P.S. ssskid, Vehicle Code Section 21453 requires that you stop at the near side crosswalk/limit line if its red. That means that if you're in the intersection when it turns red (i.e. that you enter on yellow), you're ok.
 
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It is a judgment call. But there are three fixed variables that could impact your story that I see.

1. Speed Limit on the approach to the intersection
2. Actual time of yellow light.... time it. Not all yellow lights are adjusted properly for the prevailing speed limit. It is a very common problem. I have blown intersections in my pickup truck when the speed limit is 45 mph and the yellow is too short to make the safe stop.
3. Statute related to red light violation does not adequately address the variables and judgment calls, which is why a City can be held liable for lights that are not adjusted for the prevailing speed limit and traffic conditions. Did you ever notice how some intersection green light changes are over-delayed longer than others because of the amount and speed of cross traffic?

Think safety, safety, safety. If you can convince a judge that you were being safe, you might sell it. Remember, police are public "safety" officers, not cops.
 
What he said...

That was very comprehensive btw. I'll have to bookmark this page :)
 
monstermonster said:
P.S. ssskid, Vehicle Code Section 21453 requires that you stop at the near side crosswalk/limit line if its red. That means that if you're in the intersection when it turns red (i.e. that you enter on yellow), you're ok.
Click to expand...

I stand corrected. The law ought to be changed, but that's just one citizen's opinion.
 
kaizoku said:
2. I was not driving recklessly, and it would not make sense to put myself in danger by turning on a red light into traffic.
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This one will NOT work, because people regularly and constantly put themselves - and others - in danger by running red lights, often times very blatantly.
 
always, always stop on a turn that doesn't have an island on the right hand turn.
If there's no island, you must stop and then go. As opposed to yeilding when there's an island. Put the breaks on and put your foot down and then turn your head and then go. That's what they want to see. That's the same rule for cars. I got busted for the same shit. $140 tops.
BTW, cops write tickets so they get promoted quicker and get funds for the city. It ain't worth fighting brah. If you lose, that's time wasted. If you win, that's time wasted. It's up to you... go nuts and let us know what happens.
 
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41stsurfer said:
always, always stop on a turn that doesn't have an island on the right hand turn.
If there's no island, you must stop and then go. As opposed to yeilding when there's an island. Put the breaks on and put your foot down and then turn your head and then go. That's what they want to see. That's the same rule for cars.
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Wait, what?
 
Thanks everyone for the input again! I'll take this to court and let you guys know the results. This turned out to be a better discussion than I thought it would.
 
Ssskid said:
I stand corrected. The law ought to be changed, but that's just one citizen's opinion.
Click to expand...

That's the way it is everywhere that I'm aware of. It seems absurd to change it. That would result in intersections where it's impossible to ever make a left-hand turn when traffic is heavy enough, or force us to endure yet more god-awful red/green arrows handed down by bureaucrats who don't trust people to do anything on their own.

It's very simple. Enter the intersection before the light turns red, you can legally proceed through the intersection. This should cause *zero* red-light collisions, because, even with no red/red overlap, the vehicle going thru the intersection would be visible to the vehicle entering the intersection. You do look where you're going, right?

As it is, there is often as much as a 1-2 second overlap where all lights are red.

Anyway, if you're only now realizing "this is a problem", doesn't that mean there is no problem?

It has been well established that red light violation collisions are almost entirely those who blow a red light by a substantial amount of time (several seconds, not a couple of milliseconds).
 
First there was just red and green, but that didn't give enough notice to stop, so yellow was introduced. But people treat the yellow as green, so they added multiple seconds where both lights are red. Now people treat the two seconds after the light turns red as if it were green. What's next? A fourth color on stoplights? A fifth? A full minute of silence while we wait for traffic to clear?

The left-turn scenario wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for people going straight who were treating the yellow light as a green light.

So now stopping at a yellow light is dangerous because the person behind you is probably hitting the accelerator just as you hit the brake.

Even if not it's not an actual danger (yes I do watch where I'm going) every day I'm on the road at least once I have to wait two or three seconds after the light turns green to let cars go past. Why? Because there are no consequences to "pushing it". It's crap.

All that said, I wish the OP the best of luck with the case. Just because I'm grousing about "there oughtta be a law" like an old man chasing kids off his lawn doesn't mean that the law shouldn't be enforced as it is. If he entered the intersection when the light was yellow it's a shame if he has to pay.
 
Think about it for a moment. The rule you suggest would actually worsen the situation. Upon seeing a yellow, people would either brake or accelerate. Which is what they do now. But knowing that they will get nailed if the light turns red while they're in the intersection, people will either gun it even more than they do now to try to get through the whole intersection or brake even harder because they won't have the buffer of being ok if they enter on a yellow. That rule would just lead to more erratic and dangerous driving.
 
To the OP - how fast were you taking that right turn?

10 mph = 14.6 ft/sec
15 mph = 22 ft/sec
20 mph = 29.3 ft/sec

If you were going slow enough, you shouldn't have much of a lean and should've been able to straighten up and stop anytime. If you were going fast enough, you should've been able to clear the intersection in no time. I don't really see why one would get caught in the middle of the intersection as the light turned from yellow to red.
 
kaizoku said:
@ Stormdragon: "Convincing a judge that you actually entered on a yellow, is another matter completely."

This is what I need to figure out :|
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At the very least, I find that they usually lower the fine as a bit of a sop since you've gone to the trouble to argue your case. I like to make them work for my money anyway. :teeth

Ssskid said:
Really? Is that how it is in California? Because that might explain why there are so many red light runners killing motorcyclists, bicyclists, and pedestrians.

The way I learned it is that if the light is red at any point before you exit the intersection, you're in violation. Yellow means stop if it is safe to.
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So what you're saying is that if the light turns yellow, and you determine that you can't stop without coming to a screeching halt, and thus decide to continue through, but the light then turns red before you clear the intersection, that you've run a red? Why bother with a yellow at all then?

And personally, I think an awful lot of people get hit at stoplights because they don't look! Stepping/bicycling/riding out with a green or a walk sign without looking and determining whether you're going to get run over or not, is st00pid. As others have said in other threads here: Being right, doesn't make you any less dead.
 
Stormdragon said:
So what you're saying is that if the light turns yellow, and you determine that you can't stop without coming to a screeching halt, and thus decide to continue through, but the light then turns red before you clear the intersection, that you've run a red? Why bother with a yellow at all then?
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Umm... if the light turns yellow the yellow should last long enough that if you are obeying the speed limit that you will have time to stop or get through the light. Most yellow lights' durations are based on the speed limit.

If the yellow light is shorter than the normal stopping time based on a vehicle travelling the speed limit + reaction time, you have adequate grounds to get the ticket thrown out.
 
monstermonster said:
Vehicle Code Section 21453 requires that you stop at the near side crosswalk/limit line if its red. That means that if you're in the intersection when it turns red (i.e. that you enter on yellow), you're ok.
Click to expand...

Really? I always thought you had to be through the intersection before it changes to red. Hmm, learn something new everyday.
 
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