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Holy Shit! Second Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes in a year! - (Thread references events from 2019.)

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AbsolutEnduser said:
Yeah, read that too.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing...n-the-lion-air-and-ethiopia-airlines-crashes/

And lots of other things , including "if the sensor is triggered, possibility of impact with terrain" : |
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Yeah, don't trust that news article about it making it aerodynamically unstable. Moving the CG forward does the exact opposite if what they say it does. It makes it more stable.

I have a feeling this is going to come back to faulty AOA sensors, and the pilots inability, as someone else put it ability to color outside the lines.

Primary cause will be the MCAS system. Secondary will be the pilots not using proper technique to interfere with it. If memory serves me correctly, Boeing issued a bulletin about the MCAS system and how to handle it in situations where it's going off inadvertently.
 
The current stats on the Max 8 are two crashes and approximately 300 deaths out of 41,000 flights. Sound good? Do the math. That's an average of one death for every 137 flights. The previous four generations are nowhere near that figure. ( Obviously. Nobody is going to fly on an aircraft with that poor a record.)
 
afm199 said:
The current stats on the Max 8 are two crashes and approximately 300 deaths out of 41,000 flights. Sound good? Do the math. That's an average of one death for every 137 flights. The previous four generations are nowhere near that figure. ( Obviously. Nobody is going to fly on an aircraft with that poor a record.)
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Of which the training at said airlines that have crashed is poor....at best.
 
afm199 said:
The current stats on the Max 8 are two crashes and approximately 300 deaths out of 41,000 flights. Sound good? Do the math. That's an average of one death for every 137 flights. The previous four generations are nowhere near that figure. ( Obviously. Nobody is going to fly on an aircraft with that poor a record.)
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very easily and clearly explained in the article above actually:

The first commercial flight of the 737 Max 8 was May 22, 2017, for Malindo Air, operating from Kuala Lumpur to Singapore. Southwest Airlines took its first delivery for its 737 Max 8 on Aug. 29, 2017, and debuted the plane Oct. 1, 2017. :wow

Only since 2017 and two crashes!!!! :wow



msethhunter said:
Of which the training at said airlines that have crashed is poor....at best.
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Are you saying "US pilots have Max 8 incidents all the time but they avoid them"??? :wow Crazy.. ;)

Basically I'm hoping you're not saying that..
 
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Imo
Most crashes are not the result of one thing wrong, statistically it's the third wrong thing that gets you.
In this case, I'm going with basic design flaw on an aircraft system, poor maintenance, and poor crew response.

This is not the first time something like this has happened
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues
 
msethhunter said:
Of which the training at said airlines that have crashed is poor....at best.
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Then one would think that the same stats would have extended to the entire four generations, which they did not.
 
afm199 said:
Then one would think that the same stats would have extended to the entire four generations, which they did not.
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I would agree with this.

When you have to have special training to account for circumstances that can come up this frequently on a commercial airline or it has a good chance of crashing, you have failed to deliver an acceptable commercial plane.

There is something seriously wrong with this plane and with Boeings handling of this issue. If it's the same fault as the last crash, Boeing should have grounded the planes until they had developed a software solution that would fail safe the condition.
 
As of 9 AM, forty percent of the global fleet is grounded. England, Australia, Singapore, Omar, and several Latin American countries. Boeing down another $25 today.
 
Other than the USA, it seems everyone else is now grounding the 737MAX8 aircraft.

Maybe this was trying to milk the cow once too many times (basic 737 design)? Plenty of aircraft have been stretched or modified in many different ways but was the 737 MAX a bridge too far?

The competition between Airbus and Boeing is fierce as are pressures to increase passenger loads while reducing fuel consumption at the same time. Then add in software trying to overcome mechanical design limitations and sooner or later something has to give, often the passengers giving with their lives.

"However, pilots reportedly weren't even aware that the MCAS system existed prior to the Lion Air crash, and hadn't been trained on it, according to the Seattle Times. "We do not like the fact that a new system was put on the aircraft and wasn't disclosed to anyone or put in the manuals," said Southwest Airlines Pilots Association president Jon Weaks."

Sounds like something Microsoft or Apple would do. https://www.engadget.com/2019/03/12/boeing-software-update-737-max/

Maybe someone here who is in-tune with the industry can chime in on the above?

Anyone have tickets on the 737MAX8 in the near future? I know I asked a similar question before but it seems concerns are mounting and now other than in the USA you can't fly on one anyway.

As posted below, Boeing is releasing a software update in April. Who will the Beta testers be?
 
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planegray said:
Imo
Most crashes are not the result of one thing wrong, statistically it's the third wrong thing that gets you.
In this case, I'm going with basic design flaw on an aircraft system, poor maintenance, and poor crew response.

This is not the first time something like this has happened
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues
Click to expand...

Yup, it's usually always a series of problems and warning signs. I think I've watched most of these shows, Why Planes Crash. It's a very interesting show, IMO.
 
What seems to not have been explicitly published here is that China has actually put in their statement of why they're grounding the 737 Max : "[because pilots seem to be unable or unwilling to handle the newest control issues with that plane].

IOW, it seems to me they're not exactly saying "This jet has a huge problem" but pointing that there are issues with the usage of it-- which could be Boeing's, China's/Airline's, Pilot's problem...
..... ^^^ which BTW covers two of the reasons from planegray's post (flaw, response)

Either way is probably a good call to ground.
(You could say that's why Tesla's Autopilots should be banned, to draw a parallel. hehe. )
 
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It's not just China, EU banned it too. It's also banned in Australia
 
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AbsolutEnduser said:
Are you saying "US pilots have Max 8 incidents all the time but they avoid them"??? :wow Crazy.. ;)

Basically I'm hoping you're not saying that..
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From what I've read (on the all-true internets) other pilots before the Lion Air crash had reported the stall recovery being triggered incorrectly but were able to override the MCAS in time.

Unfortunately, the pilots on the Lion Air jet either did not know how to, or were unable to override the system.

If there is a systematic fault with the AOA system that relies on overriding the automated system, that is a huge issue.

I think the bigger problem internationally is that Boeing seems to be very reluctant to share details of their systems and potential problems.
 
bojangle said:
With,

Sum Ting Wong,

Wi Tu Lo, and

Ho Lee Fuk
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Tori Campbell deserved a better exit to a long career than that. I feel bad for her every time "these guys" come up.
 
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