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how to work on braking later

tonedeaf

tonedeaf

have tires will ride
Joined
Dec 10, 2010
Location
Concord, CA
Moto(s)
'09 ZX6R, kdx200, '05 SV1000s
Name
Jack
Looking for advice again, I like learning to do things by feel (the simple way) as much as I like thinking and planning, both are fun...and letting the speed come up on its own without even trying to go faster is always rewarding and cool. But at the track, things get to a certain speed where if I'm not starting to pay attention to reference points, and dialing in changes step by step, I might just try to "feel" the braking zone a little later and WHAM I'll overshoot it.

So I want to work on braking later, and I can only think of two ways to do it. What do you guys suggest?

1) Once you have your "start braking" point and your "turn point" exactly located on the pavement, start moving the "start braking" point later and later and brake harder and harder in very small steps, until eventually you hit the limit of your comfort with trail braking and keeping the rear wheel from sliding too much. I'd try to increase the braking at the beginning, and not leave more for the end!

2) Maybe safer, keep your initial braking point the same, but try using the brakes harder so that your ideal entry speed is reached with room to spare before your turn-in point; then the next time around you know you can start later. rinse and repeat.

first one seems simpler, second one seems safer, but the first one might keep the rider smoother because the second method has the rider disconnecting things and then trying to reattach them. thoughts? know a better method?
 
I presume you're asking from a track riding perspective, not a street riding perspective? It pays to maintain a big margin of safety on the street.

I've often used the 2nd approach.

There's something you need to be aware of... If you're using correct technique, you minimize costing time -- the idea is to stay on the gas until you reach your braking marker, and smoothly roll from the gas to the brakes. If you use this technique, as your braking marker moves back, your speed will increase necessitating that you stay on the brakes longer.

E.g. You start by selecting a conservative marker, apply the brakes to the best of your ability, and find that you have 100 foot cushion between your end of brake marker, and your turn in point.

If you use a good transition from brake to gas, and maintain throttle 100 feet deeper into the corner, you're going to find yourself entering the corner too fast.
 
BTW... Late braking isn't always the fastest way into the corner for novice riders. Learning to set the correct entry speed tends to be far more important than braking aggressively. If you are over-cooking the corner all the time, you can be learning bad habits and poor cornering techniques.
 
I don't focus on braking harder, I focus on doing my best at getting on and off the brakes as smoothly as possible and keeping my corner speed as high as I can. Honestly, I only even use my brakes on a few corners at Laguna, and I'm conservative with them on those corners, and I could still run a fast B+/slow A group lap time on my 600. I find focusing too much on hard braking and picking braking markers only made me slower.

EDIT: What Burning1 said above.
 
I have no experience in racing motorcycles, but I can tell you from racing cars that late braking will not do much to reduce your laptop times or help make a pass. If you find yourself diving deep on someone, chances are you both are going down. Work on setting them up, brake early and carry more speed around the corner. You will either pass them on the next straight or inch in front of them causing them to slow off line giving you a nice clean pass and improving your own average speed.

Like burning1 said, if you brake early and have 100ft left before the apex, that absolutely does not mean you can brake 100ft later.
 
So the difference between OP's (1) and (2) is pretty subtle...
(1) pick a brake point, see how it works out
(2) pick same brake point and break harder, see how that works (i.e. how much safety margin is produced, then adjust brake point accordingly)
OR
(2') pick a later brake point and brake harder, see how that works out (hope you guessed correctly on the adjustment)
adjust.

I guess I do 2 - penalty for failure is lower than 2', but learning is the same.
 
Last edited:
Say "break" one more time...:laughing
 

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diving in on the brakes is a really ez way to go slower. corner and exit speed suffers dramatically and since u get to the next corner slower, u prob feel comfortable diving in on that one and go slower still.

dont work on braking later first... work on braking LESS. ull still be comfortable on the brakes, just working on a bit more corner speed. then, as your corner speed comes up, ull be more skilled and forced to brake harder. but because your markers havent moved, your comfort level shouldnt have changed and ull generally just be going a lot faster.

ive had a few ppl comment on how deep i go into a few corners (not that deep, just compared to the person commenting). my only thought in response is "well, im actually scrubbing less speed than that person, so it doesnt feel crazy and its def faster."
 
Faster laptimes are achieved by getting better drives so the more important question is how to work on braking further. By keeping the front end set by trailing the brakes, even with a small amount of pressure, you can get the bike turned, stood back up and on the gas again. Braking later will come with comfort but should not be done at the expense of your drive.

A quick glance at your posts shows that you're an intermediate-ish rider? My guess is that you have places where you could make up chunks of time in ways that are much safer than trying to carry a bunch of brake pressure into a corner. It's a risk/reward thing, look for the easy and safe speed first. Once you're an AMA star you can start worrying about braking 20 feet later to set that lap record.
 
All good tips, definitely agree with all! I have always been much more interested in exiting corners than stuffing it into them on the brakes--it's not as fun to me. I always look at entering for the purpose of exiting well. So, forget for a minute that I can make up time in ALL areas, when I say that my usual approach is to brake conservatively, try to turn the bike quickly at a late point that lets me point myself out of the corner ASAP.

so I'm actually asking this because I never work on braking harder, because I've never found it fun enough to take the risk... but after my last trackday most of the comments I got in person and on my video were to "learn to brake later", and nothing about my lines or corner exits.

I'm happy to just focus on setting the entry speed for now, instead of trying to compress the braking distance. Like you guys said, I'm not trying to set a lap record, I'm just trying to get better for my own enjoyment. So, I don't need to make up time in the braking because nobody is paying me to do it. Thanks guys!

Plus, trying to improve the "whole corner product", it seems like focusing on the speed you're at going through the corner instead of some disconnected chunk before the corner starts will cause you to practice perceiving the entire ideal corner product much easier....putting the horse and cart in the right order is key for me.
 
my experience is that braking too early can lead to turning in too early, which will lead to exiting the corner wide.
 
tuxumino said:
my experience is that braking too early can lead to turning in too early, which will lead to exiting the corner wide.
Click to expand...
+1. Braking too early and too hard is not going to help anything, but it gives you a good reference point.

tonedeaf said:
All good tips, definitely agree with all! I have always been much more interested in exiting corners than stuffing it into them on the brakes--it's not as fun to me. I always look at entering for the purpose of exiting well. So, forget for a minute that I can make up time in ALL areas, when I say that my usual approach is to brake conservatively, try to turn the bike quickly at a late point that lets me point myself out of the corner ASAP.

so I'm actually asking this because I never work on braking harder, because I've never found it fun enough to take the risk... but after my last trackday most of the comments I got in person and on my video were to "learn to brake later", and nothing about my lines or corner exits.

I'm happy to just focus on setting the entry speed for now, instead of trying to compress the braking distance. Like you guys said, I'm not trying to set a lap record, I'm just trying to get better for my own enjoyment. So, I don't need to make up time in the braking because nobody is paying me to do it. Thanks guys!

Plus, trying to improve the "whole corner product", it seems like focusing on the speed you're at going through the corner instead of some disconnected chunk before the corner starts will cause you to practice perceiving the entire ideal corner product much easier....putting the horse and cart in the right order is key for me.
Click to expand...
Are these riding instructors? buddies you frequently ride with? some random guy at the track day?

The only thing that matters is that you are having fun and improving your skills. Speed is a by-product of doing everything else right. You will naturally brake later, brake harder and carry more corner speed as you get more experience and feel more comfortable. Rather than focusing the entry, focus on the exit. Looking through the turn and knowing where you are exiting consistently will tell you how to adjust your entry. When learning a new track, I focus on 2-3 turns at a time and the 10ths saved each lap add up eventually.

Take my words with a grain of salt though. Like I said, I have no motorcycle racing experience. Only cars and karts, but I am sure the basic skills and knowledge still apply.
 
The biggest benefit of strong braking technique is in passing, or avoiding being passed. The vast majority of my passing is on the brakes. Nothing like being stuck behind a slow rider that out brakes you but doesn't out corner you.
 
That's way ahead of the curve for a 3rd trackday.

It sounds like there's a little bit of coasting in some spots. Figure out where you can safely and comfortably go from throttle to braking and stick with that.

To my original point you're getting off of the brakes very early and this is causing you to go back to the throttle well before you can see your exit. The result is that the bike never gets pointed towards that exit until you're well past the apex and so you're unable to get to full throttle as early as you could otherwise.
 
Archimedes said:
I don't focus on braking harder, I focus on doing my best at getting on and off the brakes as smoothly as possible and keeping my corner speed as high as I can. Honestly, I only even use my brakes on a few corners at Laguna, and I'm conservative with them on those corners, and I could still run a fast B+/slow A group lap time on my 600. I find focusing too much on hard braking and picking braking markers only made me slower.

EDIT: What Burning1 said above.
Click to expand...
this is very interesting as I too have been focusing on braking (like OP). You mention barely needing to brake at laguna...how about Sears Point?
I like the focus on smooth on and off brakes vs. hard braking...I've definitely been focusing on hard braking, and although my lap times have come down, it doesn't feel smooth (and therefore doesn't feel as good to me if you know what I mean).
 
You need a set point where you let off the brakes,no matter what.You can then adjust your start braking point from there.I have found that walking the track backwards helps a lot,looking back through the corner from your exit back to your turn-in point helps you get better reference points,which tricks your mind into slowing everything down.
 
RRrider said:
this is very interesting as I too have been focusing on braking (like OP). You mention barely needing to brake at laguna...how about Sears Point?
I like the focus on smooth on and off brakes vs. hard braking...I've definitely been focusing on hard braking, and although my lap times have come down, it doesn't feel smooth (and therefore doesn't feel as good to me if you know what I mean).
Click to expand...

Brake everywhere except for 3A, 5, the esses except for the left hander, 9A and 10.
 
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