• There has been a recent cluster of spammers accessing BARFer accounts and posting spam. To safeguard your account, please consider changing your password. It would be even better to take the additional step of enabling 2 Factor Authentication (2FA) on your BARF account. Read more here.

interactive map of all prop 8 donators

First of all the attacks on family planning clinics was very limited. Second, little do most people know is that one of the abortion doctor killers, Eric Robert Rudolph, is in fact an atheist and not an evangelical radical.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-07-05-rudolph-cover-partone_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA

Everyone just assumes he is some Christian radical, but they are wrong.
:wtf I'm going to call you on that! Please provide proof (not some nut-case website, either) to support your claim! :x
 
n10sive and cardinal03, this has to be one of the best examples of constructive debate on a subject that could (and has been) contentious that I've seen in the KS in a long time! :thumbup
 
n10sive, 40 years of jurisprudence since Loving v. Virginia and marriage has never been defined in the legal sense as a right connected in any, way shape or from to procreation.

The right of marriage stems from 1) the due process of law and 2) freedom of choice.

See in particular the 14th Amend. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

I am going to have to ask you to read this and explain to me how Loving vs. Virginia can be used to support same sex marriage. According to this source (yeah, I know it is wikipedia) but it states that the Courts also said the Loving case was not about same sex marriage and should not be construed as such. Also, if it is as you say, why all the hubbub? I don't think we have got as far as you think we have yet :dunno

Sorry for the long quote from the above reference:
Plaintiffs' reliance on Loving v. Virginia (388 US 1 [1967]) for the proposition that the US Supreme Court has established a fundamental "right to marry the spouse of one's choice" outside the male/female construct is misplaced. In Loving, an interracial couple argued that Virginia's antimiscegenation statute, which precluded "any white person in this State to marry any save a white person, or a person with no other admixture of blood than white and American Indian" (id. at 5 n 4), violated the federal Due Process and Equal Protection clauses. The statute made intermarriage in violation of its terms a felony carrying a potential jail sentence of one to five years. The Lovings—a white man and a black woman—had married in violation of the law and been convicted, prompting them to challenge the validity of the Virginia law. The Supreme Court struck the statute on both equal protection and due process grounds, but the focus of the analysis was on the Equal Protection Clause. Noting that "[t]he clear and central purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment was to eliminate all official state sources of invidious racial discrimination in the States," the Court applied strict scrutiny review to the racial classification, finding "no legitimate overriding purpose independent of invidious racial discrimination which justifies this classification" (id. at 10, 11). It made clear "that restricting the freedom to marry solely because of racial classifications violates the central meaning of the Equal Protection Clause" (id. at 12). There is no question that the Court viewed this antimiscegenation statute as an affront to the very purpose for the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment—to combat invidious racial discrimination. In its brief due process analysis, the Supreme Court reiterated that marriage is a right "fundamental to our very existence and survival" (id., citing Skinner, 316 US at 541)—a clear reference to the link between marriage and procreation. It reasoned: "To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes . . . is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law" (id.). Although the Court characterized the right to marry as a "choice," it did not articulate the broad "right to marry the spouse of one's choice" suggested by plaintiffs here. Rather, the Court observed that "[t]he Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discriminations" (id. [emphasis added]). Needless to say, a statutory scheme that burdens a fundamental right by making conduct criminal based on the race of the individual who engages in it is inimical to the values embodied in the state and federal Due Process clauses. Far from recognizing a right to marry extending beyond the one woman and one man union, it is evident from the Loving decision that the Supreme Court viewed marriage as fundamental precisely because of its relationship to human procreation.

:dunno what am I misreading here? (seriously). This sounds like it supports my idea that this is about procreation and racial descrimination, not same sex marriage.


Just FYI, in case you didn't know, Cardinal is a lawyer too -- and is probably more up-do-date than I am on constitutional issues. :teeth

That is good to know. Thanks! :thumbup

n10sive and cardinal03, this has to be one of the best examples of constructive debate on a subject that could (and has been) contentious that I've seen in the KS in a long time! :thumbup

Thanks Climber. :thumbup
 
:wtf I'm going to call you on that! Please provide proof (not some nut-case website, either) to support your claim! :x

It was based on a statement in the USA Today article where Rudolph said he preferred Nietzsche to the Bible. I'll agree that that does not mean he is an atheist but there is some suggestion that he might be. The guy is obviously a nut case.
 
I am going to have to ask you to read this and explain to me how Loving vs. Virginia can be used to support same sex marriage.

This is my fault for being unclear, but I'm not citing Loving v. Virginia for the proposition that gay marriage is a federally protected constitutional right. It is not.

I'm citing Loving v. Virginia only for the proposition that marriage, however it is defined, is a constitutionally protected, fundamental right for American citizens.

The reason Prop 8 was on the ballot was because a law was passed (in 2000 I think?) outlawing gay marriage in California.

The CA Supreme Court said that law was unconstitutional under the CA Constitution because the CA Constitution makes gays and lesbians a protected class (you cannot discriminate for sexual preference in CA). Note that the federal constitution does not protect sexual preference.

So, taking the supreme law of the land (US Supreme Court, or technically interpretation of US Constitution by US Supreme Court) which states that marriage is a fundamental right, and the supreme law of CA (CA State Constitution) which says you can't grant certain rights to heterosexuals and not to homosexuals, the CA Supreme Court struck down the CA law which outlawed gay marriage as unconstitutional (under the CA State Constitution).

That's why we get to Prop 8 - because the law was declared unconstitutional (under the CA State Constitution) opponents of gay marriage had to pass a constitutional amendment. Prop 8 amends CA's State Constitution to define marriage as between a man and a woman.

So, at this point, technically, in CA a law that says marriage can be between a man and a man would be unconstitutional under the CA State Constitution. That's because the CA State Constitution supersedes CA State Law. (I believe Prop 8 has taken effect, someone correct me if I'm wrong).

So now this debate can basically go one of three places, as the CA Supreme Court has stated they are going to review the issue.

1) The CA Supreme Court can say Prop 8, the constitutional amendment to the CA State Constitution is unconstitutional under the CA State Constitution. That argument, as I understand it, boils down (very simplified) to: you can't grant a right in one part of the constitution and deny it in the other and because the grant is first in the constitution, it supersedes Prop 8. This will not be reviewable by the US Supreme Court and will be the end all and be all on the gay marriage issue in CA.

2) The CA Supreme Court can say Prop 8 is unconstitutional under the United States Constitution. This is subject to review by the United States Supreme Court and in my opinion, has a significant chance of being overturned. I think this because the federal constitution does not recognize gays and lesbians as a protected class. In (very) simplified terms, you are basically allowed to discriminate against non-protected classes (the tall, the short, the fat, the skinny, the dumb, the ugly, etc...)

3) The CA Supreme Court can say Prop 8 is constitutional under both the CA State Constitution and the United States Constitution. In this case, the only thing that would make gay marriage legal again in CA would be another constitutional amendment to supersede Prop 8. That would probably take at least 5-10 years.

Hope that all makes sense.
 
Hope that all makes sense.

Yes, and thanks for the explanation. :thumbup

I had thought you were trying to state that the US Supreme Court had already ruled on the 14th Amendment issue regarding same sex marriage and that this case law supported your argument that denying same sex marriage WAS unconstitutional (on a US level). I see now that you were only referring to the California constitution.
 
An article published this week disputes that idea: Link

Andy, that article actually says that the number for Black support was lowered from 70 percent to 59 percent in support of prop 8...and due to religious beliefs of black voters. I always read the number as in the high 50's from black voters...and always knew it was due to their religious followings.

It still doesn't dispute that the Obama factor really helped Prop 8 to succeed.
 
Um, actually, they ARE the law. Read the California, and US constitutions some time... :twofinger

And I just want to quote that again. It's clear that most of the people in this thread are not familiar with any of the above or are simply unable to comprehend it.

I took your advice, but I'm not sure what I was supposed to find. The US Constitution didn't say anything at all about marriage, it merely enumerated the powers delegated to the three branches of government, etc.

It did, though, have these two amendments:

* Ninth Amendment – The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

* Tenth Amendment – The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

The California Constitution had this to say about marriage:

SEC. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or
recognized in California.

I can't find where it says gay marriage is a right. :confused :p

Regardless of how you feel about marriage, don't you want to be able to make that decision for yourself, and not have your neighbor or the government make the decision for you? Seriously, honest question. What if the government passed a law requiring marriage?

Isn't it fundamentally your decision to make, and your right to make that decision, whether to get married or not?

That's the best argument ever against all collectivism, or allowing government to do anything besides its enumerated powers. Welfare, social security, gun ownership restrictions, product safety requirements, definition of marriage, smoking, drinking... tons of stuff that you had the right to decide whether to do or not, but now only get to do what the government says you get to do.

And yet, for some reason, legions of people are against constitutional government because they think shrinking government will restrict their freedoms of choice.
 
So which rights did you lose when the CA Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriage? How much did it cost you? Did that decision significantly impact your life in any way?

You seem to believe that legalizing same-sex marriage is equivalent to a gun grab, or to a smoking ban, or to a tax increase. But as they say on 'Sesame Street' one of these things is not like the others. One is an expansion of freedom (or, to put it another way, a reduction of government restrictions on people); the other three are restrictions on freedom.

If your problem is with the fact that same-sex marriage was legalized by the courts, and not by the legislative branch or a popular vote.

Fair enough. So if the California electorate were to vote to ban all handguns, or all cigarette sales, or impose a 99% income tax on anyone whose BARF userName begins with Z, then I guess that woud be A-OK, as long as those eeeeevil activist judges aren't involved. Right?
 
That's the best argument ever against all collectivism, or allowing government to do anything besides its enumerated powers. Welfare, social security, gun ownership restrictions, product safety requirements, definition of marriage, smoking, drinking... tons of stuff that you had the right to decide whether to do or not, but now only get to do what the government says you get to do.

And yet, for some reason, legions of people are against constitutional government because they think shrinking government will restrict their freedoms of choice.

This is not an accurate statement.

Marriage - fundamental right, no compelling state interest to restrict.
Welfare - not fundamental right.
Social security - not fundamental right.
Gun ownership - fundamental right, compelling state interest to restrict.
Product safety requirements - legitimate regulation of interstate commerce + compelling state interest to regulate.
Smoking - not fundamental right.
Drinking - not fundamental right.

tons of stuff that you had the right to decide whether to do or not, but now only get to do what the government says you get to do.

This does not accurately reflect any sort of legal concept. While your vernacular use of the word "right" is accurate, it is not accurate in any legal sense of the word. Legally, the word "right" in your sentence should be replaced by the word "ability."

Your misunderstanding of the legal concept of a "right" is causing you to lump all of the above together, when it should not be.

For this discussion to be constructive people really need to understand what is a "fundamental" right protected by the 14th Amend. and what is not. Those rights listed in the Bill of Rights, for example, are a non-exhaustive list of fundamental rights. Refer also to macadamizer's post on this issue in this thread.

Some helpful but non-comprehensive information can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_right

Guys, we have a lot of these types of legal/constitutional discussions in the Sink and nearly no one uses any of the terminology correctly. People spend lifetimes understanding just small sections of our Constitution - we have 1st Amendment specialists, 2nd Amendment specialists - and even after lifetimes of studying what essentially amounts to a handful of paragraphs, people still disagree as to their meanings.

On the one hand, this means that reasonable people can disagree as to the meanings of *some* of these things. On the other, it means that the Kitchen Sink constitutional discussions occur at a very low level and that there is a tremendous amount of misunderstanding and misinformation going around.

It would be really great to keep at least the misinformation to a minimum.

On a scale of 0-100 on constitutional law expertise, with the Supreme Court at 100, I'd put myself at a 20, an average person who's gone through any rigorous law school at about a 15, and the other 99% of the population somewhere between 0 and 1. The subject is extremely complex. In my personal opinion, it's one of the hardest legal subjects to be an expert on. The introductory ConLaw text in law school is 1600 pages long - it's not exactly a picture book.

And that's just federal...

I'm not saying this to be a dick, I'm saying it to put things in context. If we can talk about these things in a mature way these discussions are actually great fun. But the legal language bears little relationship to the English language and if there's any desire for these threads to be productive we have to be clear about separating the two.

When the Supreme Court hands down decisions, their decisions essentially become facts for the purposes of jurisprudence. What I mean by this is if the Supreme Court says that being able to read a newspaper while sitting on the crapper is a constitutionally protect right, it is a fact that in the United States reading a newspaper while sitting on the crapper is a constitutionally protected right. That's not an elegant way of saying it, but it makes the point.

There are natural rights, legal rights, vernacular rights, property rights, economic rights, individual rights, things that aren't rights at all, things that should be rights and aren't and things that shouldn't be and are and then there are just plain old opinions and the distinction of what these might mean in a legal vs. a philosophical context.

It's nothing less than a minefield out there. Let's navigate it with prudence.

edit - zefflyn, this post is not directed at you in its entirety, it's just your post that prompted it. This misunderstanding and misuse of language is what fuels a lot of the circular and less-than-constructive discussions on these topics.
 
...
:blah
...
:blah
...

I get it. Since the Supreme Court cannot agree 100% on the 'constitution', and we create a vast amount of wealth for people to understand or try to comprehend specialized portions of the Constitution...and it is misused many times...what you are really saying is that Government is like religion and the Constitution is its Bible :teeth
 
That's why we get to Prop 8 - because the law was declared unconstitutional (under the CA State Constitution) opponents of gay marriage had to pass a constitutional amendment. Prop 8 amends CA's State Constitution to define marriage as between a man and a woman.

But the fact remains that Prop 8 was filed about 6 months before the decision, and the vast majority of the signature-gathering was complete before the decision too. Most observers expected the CA Supremes to uphold Prop 22 -- both supporters and opponents of same-sex marriage were stunned when they didn't.

So there's clearly no post hoc, ergo propter hoc here. See, I can use fancy lawyer talk too! :twofinger
 
...and attorneys are the priests of that "bible"...much like the inquisition.
 
But the fact remains that Prop 8 was filed about 6 months before the decision, and the vast majority of the signature-gathering was complete before the decision too. Most observers expected the CA Supremes to uphold Prop 22 -- both supporters and opponents of same-sex marriage were stunned when they didn't.

So there's clearly no post hoc, ergo propter hoc here. See, I can use fancy lawyer talk too! :twofinger

I don't understand your point here. Prop 22 was a statute. Prop 8 was a constitutional amendment. Prop 8 supersedes the CA Supreme Court decision, there's no question. The question is whether the CA Constitution can have within it two conflicting sections, and if it can, which controls. That's a hard one to call because there's just about zero precedent.
 
So maybe this is why so many people have no problem with the idea of ditching the Constitution and replacing it with the Bible.
 
I don't understand your point here. Prop 22 was a statute. Prop 8 was a constitutional amendment. Prop 8 supersedes the CA Supreme Court decision, there's no question. The question is whether the CA Constitution can have within it two conflicting sections, and if it can, which controls. That's a hard one to call because there's just about zero precedent.

Just trying to clarify the timeline. You said,

The reason Prop 8 was on the ballot was because a law was passed (in 2000 I think?) outlawing gay marriage in California.

Which means same-sex marriage was already illegal, which means there was little point in Prop 8, unless it was to make something that was already illegal, super-duper illegal with cherries on top.

Prop 8 would have been on the ballot no matter which way the Supreme Court ruled.
 
Back
Top