Low speed turns in the rain

[BigMatt408]

I did a search for this but couldn't find what I was really looking for, hope this isn't a repost, or at least a recent one

I was told that when taking turns at lower speed you are supposed to push the bike down under you instead of hanging off. What I want to know is, does this method still hold true during the rain?

When taking lower speed turns, like switchbacks and such on roads like Alpine, Tunitas Creek and Page Mill, during the rain, should I still be trying to push the bike under me or is there a better way to handle these turns with reduced traction.

On higher speed and normal speed turns I hang off more so I can keep the bike more upright and not use up as much tire but during low speed turns it still feels better to push the bike under me than try to hang off more. What I want to know is what is the best way to handle lower speed turns in the rain, and don't say get a motard, because I am saving up for one at the moment

Thank you in advance for any constructive input.

 

[thumbus2003]

I ride a dualsport so...

In the rain I tend use only the front break and engine breaking, before the turn. While in the turn I throttle up and ride at what ever pace. But no I do not lean as much (or at all) in the rain/wet pavment.

Sounds like your on a sport bike and should probly go to the track but when your riding at low speeds you realy don't need to hang off so don't bother. Hanging off is for keeping tracking on the road, if your not going fast enough to lowside don't bother.

But I'm an young moron, so don't listen to me educate me.

 

[flying_hun]

I was told that when taking turns at lower speed you are supposed to push the bike down under you instead of hanging off. What I want to know is, does this method still hold true during the rain?

When taking lower speed turns, like switchbacks and such on roads like Alpine, Tunitas Creek and Page Mill, during the rain, should I still be trying to push the bike under me or is there a better way to handle these turns with reduced traction.

In short, the answer is yes. In dealing with slippery conditions, it's easier to manage the bike if you're on top of it with the bike pushed down below you. That way when it slides around a bit you aren't levered off to the side, and you're less likely to lowside. It's much easier to maintain control of the bike doing what you describe in your post.

This is the approach taught at places like American Supercamp and Rich Oliver's Mystery School. Both places teach riding at the limit of traction by introducing students to slippery surfaces at relatively low speeds. Pushing the bike beneath you while keeping your upper body centered above the bike is the way to go.

Below is a picture of Karin Oliver performing a textbook example of staying above the bike while pushing it down as she slides the bike. The picture of control.

While you're saving money for a tard, consider saving some for one of these schools.

 

[BigMatt408]

I ride a dualsport so...

In the rain I tend use only the front break and engine breaking, before the turn. While in the turn I throttle up and ride at what ever pace. But no I do not lean as much (or at all) in the rain/wet pavment.

Sounds like your on a sport bike and should probly go to the track but when your riding at low speeds you realy don't need to hang off so don't bother. Hanging off is for keeping tracking on the road, if your not going fast enough to lowside don't bother.

But I'm an young moron, so don't listen to me educate me.

During low speed turn I don't hang off I normally try and steer the bike under me, but what I want to know is during the rain is this still the best way to handle low speed turns?

 

[BigMatt408]

Thank you Flying Hun!

 

[2strokeYardSale]

I just did that through a sandy turn on the way in to work this morning. After I did it, I thought, why? Because I expected one or both tires to slide and that body position allowed me to be "on top" of things, to better control steering into a rear wheel slide or standing the bike up.

 

[Baptistro]

When and how you apply that technique is equally important. That technique actually requires additional lean angle for any given turn, at the same rate of speed speed, so be careful as counterweighting the motorcycle will make you reach maximum lean angle sooner, as opposed to hanging off, and possibly at the extreme, the limits of traction (grinding hand parts, levering the bike off the contact patch, being on the edge of the tire) would be reached sooner.

Another thing to focus on when riding any corner in the rain is throttle control.

Traction is decreased in the wet, so I also use the rear brake to make the rear squat a little and not load up the front end unnecessarily when using the front brake to set my entry speed.

 

[Gary J]

First off, let me acknowledge that the technique preferred for dealing with a particular type of riding situation is totally up to the individual to decide (i.e. "whatever works for you is cool").

With that said, my opinion (provided in the response below to the OP's question) on what has proven to work for me ...... for handling this type of turn when riding in the rain ..... may not align with everyone's preference.

In weighing of the opinion however, I will mention that the rain riding learning that it springs from comes from likely 50K+ miles of worst-case wet weather riding, on a wide range of road conditions, and a variety of different size/type of motorcycles. Some of those wet weather testing miles at a pace (on the track) that would be surprising to many.

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During low speed turn I don't hang off I normally try and steer the bike under me, but what I want to know is during the rain is this still the best way to handle low speed turns?

The technique you describe Matt, of not getting off the bike at all, and therefore pushing the bike under you (i.e. leaning it an exaggerated amount), is 180 degrees opposite of what I would recommend to you .... for navigating low-speed/tight turns, in wet weather conditions .... on a sportbike (light weight dirtbikes, or Motards, have more options).

There are a few turns of this exact nature on the local twisty backroad route in the Santa Cruz mountains, that our group frequents on weekend adventures. One in particular is about 1/2 way down Felton Empire Rd, coming down from Empire Grade, and heading back to Hwy 9. It's a very tight, low-speed (10MPH?) downhill, righthand turn.

The technique I personally use is to get my body positioned off the bike to the inside early at the turn approach, to an exaggerated (for the speed) amount. I then very consciously try to keep the bike as near to vertical as possible, from entrance, to apex, to exit. Generally the target line that I'm trying to get the bike to take is a very SMOOTH one ... one which minimizes the amount of side force the contact patch of the front tire is dealing with, at every millisecond interval.

I try to think of the handlebars as if they were attached to a tricycle, where for a righthand turn you actually rotate the bars on their pivot a very subtle (small) amount in a clockwise (right) direction ... to encourage the front tire to take the path you want it to track through the turn.

I keep my elbows up more than normal, and try to have my shoulders kind of squared-off with the handlebars. It becomes a situation where my entire shoulder/arm/chest combination is acting more as a single entity, that is facilitating the subtle steering of the front wheel.

It feels pretty weird at first. The reason being it does require a lot of conscious off-bike body positioning, and an action of almost pushing the bike away from you (straightening out your outside arm's elbow) to keep it close to being nearly straight upright. If the bike is allowed to lean very far over at any point, the steering action described above (subtlely easing the steering to rotate the front wheel in the direction of the turn) will not work .... and the whole process is lost.

It takes practice, feels very contrary to normal counter-steering cornering techniques. It's also something that ONLY works in very low speed (10MPH or less? .. as a guesstimate), tight radius turns ... and has the most value/importance when navigating such turns in the rain (as was your [OP] question).

Presented as a technique for those that may wish to test a different approach to dealing with such specialized riding challenges, than what they may have been using previously. If it works ...... cool .... go with it. If not, and something else works better ...... stick to it too.

Hope this gives you something to consider Matt, in response to your posted question on rain riding in those specialized conditions.

 

[tzrider]

When and how you apply that technique is equally important. That technique actually requires additional lean angle for any given turn, at the same rate of speed speed, so be careful as counterweighting the motorcycle will make you reach the limits of traction sooner.

How would counterleaning cause the bike to reach the traction limit sooner?

 

[flying_hun]

How would counterleaning cause the bike to reach the traction limit sooner?

My question exactly. Lateral load is lateral load unless doing so diminishes the contact patch. On my bike I'd be dragging the peg first.

 

[BigMatt408]

Thank you Gary J! I remember reading something about that technique you just described in one of your books. BTW your tips in those books have helped my learning curve out a lot! I have been experimenting with your technique as well as counter leaning the bike through the slow turns.

I just am not sure which I prefer yet and that's why I posted the question on this board. I guess I wanted to know if one technique was above and beyond better than the other. I have not gone down yet while experimenting in the rain, but I would like to figure out which will work for me. That may depend on the situation. I just hope it rains again so I can get some more practice!

 

[thumbus2003]

Sorry for my last post.

There should be a good rain on the weekend after this comming.

 

[Ironbutt]

In short, the answer is yes. In dealing with slippery conditions, it's easier to manage the bike if you're on top of it with the bike pushed down below you. That way when it slides around a bit you aren't levered off to the side, and you're less likely to lowside. It's much easier to maintain control of the bike doing what you describe in your post.

This is the approach taught at places like American Supercamp and Rich Oliver's Mystery School. Both places teach riding at the limit of traction by introducing students to slippery surfaces at relatively low speeds. Pushing the bike beneath you while keeping your upper body centered above the bike is the way to go.

Below is a picture of Karin Oliver performing a textbook example of staying above the bike while pushing it down as she slides the bike. The picture of control.

Karin rocks, she can ride the wheels off a motorcycle.

 

[masameet]

OP,

This past Sunday Doc Wong touched this very subject -- how to turn on slippery surfaces, including asphalt in the rain.

I took notes but this is from memory:

* Lean less
* Weight the outside peg
* Scrub off enough speed way before the turn so as not to use your brakes going into the turn
* Keep the throttle slightly increasing through the turn
* If the rear tire begins to slip, turn the throttle a little to get the bike to stand up more

Here's a video I shot going down wet and rainy Jamison Creek Rd. (Santa Cruz County) during this past Sunday's ride with Doc Wong:

http://www.vimeo.com/2963526

As you can see, I need to work on increasing the throttle through the turn. Also I'm on my DRZ400SM and I ride like an old lady anyway.

And we actually did this near same ride the Sunday before, when Jamison Creek Rd. was dry as a bone. Loved riding down it. As I recall, we sorta dashed down it.

 

[Baptistro]

How would counterleaning cause the bike to reach the traction limit sooner?

My question exactly. Lateral load is lateral load unless doing so diminishes the contact patch. On my bike I'd be dragging the peg first.

My mistake. I did mean to say that it would reach the maximum lean angle sooner, as opposed to hanging off, and possibly at the extreme, the limits of traction (grinding hand parts, levering the bike off the contact patch, being on the edge of the tire) would be reached sooner.

***Edited my previous post for clarification***

 

[flying_hun]

My mistake. I did mean to say that it would reach the maximum lean angle sooner, as opposed to hanging off, and possibly at the extreme, the limits of traction (grinding hand parts, levering the bike off the contact patch, being on the edge of the tire) would be reached sooner.

***Edited my previous post for clarification***

Now I get it. Thanks.

 

[tzrider]

My mistake. I did mean to say that it would reach the maximum lean angle sooner, as opposed to hanging off, and possibly at the extreme, the limits of traction (grinding hand parts, levering the bike off the contact patch, being on the edge of the tire) would be reached sooner.

I was curious what you meant. There is another angle to consider on the bike lean angle vs. traction subject: With more bike lean angle, the bike's suspension isn't quite as effective, so available traction will be lessened for that reason. It may or may not be enough to notice.

 

[louemc]

In short, the answer is yes. In dealing with slippery conditions, it's easier to manage the bike if you're on top of it with the bike pushed down below you. That way when it slides around a bit you aren't levered off to the side, and you're less likely to lowside. It's much easier to maintain control of the bike doing what you describe in your post.

This is the approach taught at places like American Supercamp and Rich Oliver's Mystery School. Both places teach riding at the limit of traction by introducing students to slippery surfaces at relatively low speeds. Pushing the bike beneath you while keeping your upper body centered above the bike is the way to go.

Below is a picture of Karin Oliver performing a textbook example of staying above the bike while pushing it down as she slides the bike. The picture of control.

While you're saving money for a tard, consider saving some for one of these schools.

Excellent post, Kurt. And.....(I don't expect the OP to do this, but... I gotta say it).

You can enjoy the benefits of the Motard, by tossing those clip-ons, and doing the street fighter conversion to the handle bars. (I'm not talkin any modifications to the plastic or anything else, just the handle bars).

That puts your body in the position to work your bike, right, on those public street/roads corners (and everything else on the public street your on)