MOTOGP 2012 Final Preseason IRTA test, Jerez. 3/23-3/25

[small-g]

Or better yet, go watch the older GP500 races. A lot of those races were boring and spread out and it's not as exciting as some make it out to be. Nostalgia sometimes cloud judgment. After watching those, you might have a better appreciation of the talents we have now and how lucky we are as fans at the moment.

 

[Sidewalk]

Or better yet, go watch the older GP500 races. A lot of those races were boring and spread out and it's not as exciting as some make it out to be. Nostalgia sometimes cloud judgment. After watching those, you might have a better appreciation of the talents we have now and how lucky we are as fans at the moment.

+1

 

[DaveT319]

Wait, what? Did you watch MotoGP during that same period? It looks to me like Honda had the serious power advantage. They certainly had the best motor. The only reason there was anything interesting going on between 2000 and 2004 was because Honda had the best riders competing against each other. If Rossi hadn't switched to Yamaha and Furusawa got the funding he needed, the 990 era would have been entirely a Honda show.

That's my point. In the top class, there's more likelihood for there to be one manufacturer that produces better power than the others. That seems to be Honda ever since 990. My point was that in those lower classes - 125 and 250 - there wasn't really as much chance for one bike to have a clear power advantage over all the others. They were all pretty even, and it really came down to the riders.

 

[DaveT319]

Go watch a GP in Spain. You'll leave with a different feeling. I promise.

The atmosphere of the races in Spain doesn't have anything to do with the excitement of the racing.

You guys are so funny. You claim because the bikes are awesome pieces of machinery that it means that the racing is exciting. You claim because the atmosphere of the races is palpable that it means the racing is exciting. You claim that because it's the best racers in the world that it means the racing is exciting.

No.

If the RACING is exciting, then the RACING is exciting. When most races end with 5 second gaps through the entire field, that is NOT exciting, no matter who or what is racing. Exciting racing is when guys are battling for positions throughout the race. If the battling only happens for the first half dozen laps and then very little after that, how can that be exciting?

I just don't get how some of you guys can maintain that opinion. Are they great racers? Yep. Are they amazing machines? Definitely. Is the racing exciting? Meh.

 

[DaveT319]

Two examples: I went back to a couple races last year, Qatar and Estoril (I'll go through more tomorrow). Comparing the halfway point in the race to the finish:

Qatar
Ped - Sto - Lor - Sic - Dov - Ros - Spi - Edw - Bar - AoH - Hay - Cru - Abr - Eli
Sto - Lor - Ped - Dov - Sic - Spi - Ros - Edw - Hay - AoH - Cru - Bar - Abr

Estoril
Lor - Ped - Sto - Ros - Dov - Edw - Cru - AoH - Hay - RdP - Eli - Cap - Bau
Ped - Lor - Sto - Dov - Ros - Edw - AoH - Cru - Hay - RdP - Eli - Cap - Bau

Not a lot of changes in the last half of the races. It's quite rare that someone pulls a Lorenzo at Assen to cut through the field. And the only reason he did so was because he got punted to the back and was just faster than those ahead of him. If he hadn't gotten punted, he probably would have ended up near the front with very few position changes because he and his bike were better than most of the field, but about equal to the leaders.

I still love watching the racing, but I can't agree that it's exciting. For the first few laps, yeah, but by about halfway through they are usually settled into a position pretty close to where they'll finish. Rarely does anyone move up significantly as much as someone drops back. I think control engines would make for more exciting racing, but then of course it wouldn't be prototype bikes, and we can't have that.

 

[small-g]

I get what you're saying. Everyone wants a lot of passes in a race, but to me those kind of races aren't necessarily a more exciting race than a race with just a handful of passes and battle for positions. It just depends on a lot of things for me for a race to be exciting because when I see everyone on the limit trying hard to pass, but can't because they are so close in performance that is exciting for me. That's racing for me because it means that parity of the level of the bike and rider combination is good. Right now, passing is hard because the so called "aliens" are just too good and close in talent and bike quality with each other and many other riders can't get there.

 

[Brown81]

We should put restricter plates on these bikes and make 'em run on big ovals.

Rubbins' racin'

 

[Sidewalk]

The atmosphere of the races in Spain doesn't have anything to do with the excitement of the racing.

You guys are so funny. You claim because the bikes are awesome pieces of machinery that it means that the racing is exciting. You claim because the atmosphere of the races is palpable that it means the racing is exciting. You claim that because it's the best racers in the world that it means the racing is exciting.

But it is exciting for me. GP is the only place in the world where we get this, and you are advocating to take it away to make it more like something you can get anywhere. Why not become a fan of those series and enjoy it so those of us that enjoy prototype racing can continue enjoying prototype racing?

That's my point. In the top class, there's more likelihood for there to be one manufacturer that produces better power than the others. That seems to be Honda ever since 990. My point was that in those lower classes - 125 and 250 - there wasn't really as much chance for one bike to have a clear power advantage over all the others. They were all pretty even, and it really came down to the riders.

That isn't true though, Aprilia has had an advantage for years.

 

[Spec-ECU]

Or better yet, go watch the older GP500 races. A lot of those races were boring and spread out and it's not as exciting as some make it out to be. Nostalgia sometimes cloud judgment. After watching those, you might have a better appreciation of the talents we have now and how lucky we are as fans at the moment.

+1

I gotta say, now I can actually say something about the older 500 series.



I've only been watching moto racing for about five years now, but I got a chance to watch the 1996 Season Reviews for both GP and SBK, and really, it was just two of the usual suspects in GP (Doohan and Criville) holding the front. Not to mention that it seemed like the GP guys (and even the SBK guys) actually dealt with lapped traffic every race weekend, with some wins actually being affected by the lapped traffic.

So yeah, the premier class seems to have always been clearly divisive due to one reason or another. It's where the sharpest knives go, but some are just going to be sharper than the rest. And even if CRT's first year renders them back-markers or lapped traffic, it's relly nothing new at all for the series. Though it may just be new to the current crop of GP fans.

 

[Foxhole Atheist]

I've only been watching moto racing for about five years now, but I got a chance to watch the 1996 Season Reviews for both GP and SBK, and really, it was just two of the usual suspects in GP (Doohan and Criville) holding the front.

For the sake of argument, let's say a close race is where the gap to second place is around a second. In 1996 there were 6 such races; the average per season from 1990 - 2001 was about 5. The average in the 800 era is about 2.5, so it's not about nostalgia, the racing really has deteriorated.

It was a Doohan/Criville 1-2 eight out of 15 rounds in 1996, a lot, but there were non-Honda winners: Cadalora, Abe and Capirossi.

 

[Spec-ECU]

For the sake of argument, let's say a close race is where the gap to second place is around a second. In 1996 there were 6 such races; the average per season from 1990 - 2001 was about 5. The average in the 800 era is about 2.5, so it's not about nostalgia, the racing really has deteriorated.

A lot more has changed in racing since then, not just the talent between the riders. Basically, my personal opinion now is that racing has simply and naturally evolved, not necessarily deteriorated. Though I'll argue that it's evolution may simply not be what the fans had hoped for.

 

[Foxhole Atheist]

A lot more has changed in racing since then, not just the talent between the riders.

Yeah, mostly reduced fuel and increased electronics.

I'm a little skeptical that Dorna should do anything to make the racing closer; '88 to '06 was really a special time, maybe not to be seen again regardless of what happens with the regs.

But, Dorna has a responsibility to save GP from the MSMA, and making racing cheaper is essential when the MSMA has broken its promise to keep members like Suzuki and Kawasaki racing.

 

[Bowling4Bikes]

and the bikes are waaaay faster

 

[Foxhole Atheist]

and the bikes are waaaay faster

Yup.

 

[clutchslip]

That's my point. In the top class, there's more likelihood for there to be one manufacturer that produces better power than the others. That seems to be Honda ever since 990. My point was that in those lower classes - 125 and 250 - there wasn't really as much chance for one bike to have a clear power advantage over all the others. They were all pretty even, and it really came down to the riders.

EXACTLY! And every moto-gearhead that I know kept waiting for the Honda V5 to hit the streets. There would be no MotoGP without Honda, Yamaha, and Ducati trying to prove their technology is the best.

We should put restricter plates on these bikes and make 'em run on big ovals.

Rubbins' racin'

They already do that with the fuel limits.

But it is exciting for me. GP is the only place in the world where we get this, and you are advocating to take it away to make it more like something you can get anywhere. Why not become a fan of those series and enjoy it so those of us that enjoy prototype racing can continue enjoying prototype racing?



That isn't true though, Aprilia has had an advantage for years.

True enough, Honda has gunned for Aprilia forever.

and the bikes are waaaay faster

Thank goodness that tires are way better, too.

 

[Bowling4Bikes]

my comment was more directed to the statement that mostly the differences between current bikes and the elder ones are reduced fuel and more electronics. to me that implies that the bikes are slower. the differences are actually...mostly everything is different. all the differences have added up to much, much faster bikes.

 

[Foxhole Atheist]

my comment was more directed to the statement that mostly the differences between current bikes and the elder ones are reduced fuel and more electronics. to me that implies that the bikes are slower. the differences are actually...mostly everything is different. all the differences have added up to much, much faster bikes.

My comment was directed at why the racing may have gotten worse. Less fuel and more electronics narrows the racing line. As for faster lap times, put me in the column of people who don't give a shit (until it becomes a safety/track redesign issue).

 

[sidewazzz]

I get your point but keep in mind spies wasn't riding a crashed bike trying to get around two thirds of the grid

If you get back on a crashed bike and things are working normal (clearly things were) is pretty easy to get your ass going again after 3-4 laps.

 

[clutchslip]

My comment was directed at why the racing may have gotten worse. Less fuel and more electronics narrows the racing line. As for faster lap times, put me in the column of people who don't give a shit (until it becomes a safety/track redesign issue).

EVERY track that runs MotoGP has been changed to accommodate the new safety concerns. I just watched an '89 MotoGP race at Laguna. This was Laguna's best layout. Rossi and the safety team made a lot of changes.

If you hit a wall at 189 mph, as opposed to 201 mph, I don't think you will feel any better, so limiting the bike speeds, does not not seem the correct solution.

 

[Bowling4Bikes]

My comment was directed at why the racing may have gotten worse. Less fuel and more electronics narrows the racing line. As for faster lap times, put me in the column of people who don't give a shit (until it becomes a safety/track redesign issue).

you don't want to see them turn a corner faster? alright. we'll disagree.