MotoGP Marshal Procedures in Dire Need of Revision

[DaveT319]

Declaring a track cold requires that not only are all bikes off the track but that they have been accounted for. If there are bikes on track, it is hot and it is dangerous - even under a red flag. Yes, riders should be cruising and not at speed but the minute you assume that, you are at risk.

The alternative is pace cars which can shut a track down in a couple of minutes but we saw how well that went over in AMA.



The alternative is to leave the rider on the ground until the track is safe. There isn't a 'look out for your safety but take as much time next to a hot track as possible' setting.

Pace/safety cars seem to work just fine in BSB.

But here's the thing with THIS incident: it happened on the second lap of the race. The red flag came out immediately. They were only half way through the lap, and no one had reached the entrance to pit lane before the red flag came out. Also by the time the flag came out, all the bikes had passed the scene. This means that all the bikes were between the pit lane entrance and the scene. So it should have taken no more than 1 minute to get every bike off the track, at which point they could have tended to him properly. This idea that they had to rush doesn't fly with me, because there was no reason to:
-immediate red flag
-all bikes were beyond the scene, but not yet past pit lane
-zero danger of another bike coming upon them at speed

Of course, I believe this is all moot in this instance, because he was almost surely dead at that point. But it doesn't make their actions any less distressing.

 

[jorbar1551]

Please read my notes above. Shutting down a track and declaring it cold requires at least 10 minutes. While the track is hot, there is a significant danger not only to the fallen rider but to the corner workers and medical. Until you've been trackside with nothing between you and those machines, it is hard to understand how dangerous it is. Corner workers are positioned at the barrel of the gun - they don't put spectators there for a reason.

Deplorable is a pretty strong word. Until you've been out there and dealt with a crashed rider, I'd suggest that you take some time to consider the seriousness of your condemnation.

I would say its about 5 min from the time red flag is shown till the time riders are off track and ambulance is on its way.

AFM says ambulance will not roll until track is completely cleared and last rider is in the pits or passed the point of where the ambulance enters the course.
AMA is the same, but since the event is televised, they are less likely to call a red flag. I dont believe they are putting riders or track workers in any more danger than they need to be, I just believe AFM is very safety conscious.

GP is a whoooooooolllee nother ball game. To me, GP is more focused on continuous transmission of live television than calling a red flag. Remember when (german rider) crashed and reopened a hand wound? He was bleeding profusely and needed more medical help than could be provided at the corner. The corner workers continued to ask for a red flag and an ambulance and kept on getting denied, until the GP Rider himself got on the com's and yelled at medical control for denying him medical help.

 

[vought]

I find it truly sad that (at least from what i read here) pro motorcycle racing series seem to put less money and effort into preparing and training local staff than we do for a group of a few hundred people who show up once a year to voluntarily walk around in the desert and help residents of a city that doesn't exist on the next week's calendar or any map. All in all, a bit perplexing given what's on the line, but I acknowledge they're two vastly different beasts.

Still, we solve our problem with dedicated volunteers and some reasonably astute tech folks. Don't understand how FIA can't do the same with their resources.

 

[m_asim]

Remember when (german rider) crashed and reopened a hand wound? He was bleeding profusely and needed more medical help than could be provided at the corner. The corner workers continued to ask for a red flag and an ambulance and kept on getting denied, until the GP Rider himself got on the com's and yelled at medical control for denying him medical help.

I was working that corner and can't corroborate if the GP rider got on the com. However, I can corroborate that some folks manning the Medical at Laguna Seca are fucking idiots who have no business on a race track. Unlike the corner workers, these guys get on the track due to their connections to some doctor (Dr. Ting?). From what I have seen many of them are there to get sun and make some extra $ on the side. (Folks like lovedoc can comment more on the type of people working the Medical)

For that particular in particular, we had an ambulance right parked across the bridge over the track at turn 8. All it took for the Medical was to get on the cart parked behind the turn, get Alex Hoffman on it and cross the fucking bridge. But they waited until the practice session was over. Alex could have died due to the incompetence of the medical staff. So don't think that we are any better. We just have been lucky.

Being a turn marshall, I would never let my workers go on a hot track after a crash as motorcycles become projectiles and can easily take out workers. That does not mean we never go on a hot track but extreme caution is needed when something like this happens.

I hope and pray that this incident opens the eyes of Laguna Seca MotoGP officials to change their procedures before it is too late.

 

[JO EBRMC]

I hope and pray that this incident opens the eyes of Laguna Seca MotoGP officials to change their procedures before it is too late.

From my understanding talking to corner workers from around the world, Laguna Seca is one of the very best with just Donnington and maybe Silverstone. Medical staff may be the exception, I don't have the training to know.

 

[LongGoneJohn]

We need to remember that policies and procedures are (and should be) made based on what happens most often, not the exceptions.

Yes, it'd be best to leave Marco there at that time considering where all the other bikes were.... But 99 times out of 100 it's more important to get him off track NOW. So the more common event becomes the focus of response.

It sucks when it goes awry, but it's still the correct way to train / instruct your average person.

 

[m_asim]

From my understanding talking to corner workers from around the world, Laguna Seca is one of the very best with just Donnington and maybe Silverstone. Medical staff may be the exception, I don't have the training to know.

Glad to know that Laguna corner workers crew is mostly composed of very experienced and composed professionals. Turn marshalls tend to be guys who have had multiple decades of experience working different races.

Yes, it'd be best to leave Marco there at that time considering where all the other bikes were.... But 99 times out of 100 it's more important to get him off track NOW.

Are you kidding me? Unless the rider can be reached without endangering my workers, I am not going to have my guys get on a hot track and get killed trying to get a rider off the track. That is the first thing I tell the young'uns too eager to jump on the track so that they don't act heroes.

 

[LongGoneJohn]

Glad to know that Laguna corner workers crew is mostly composed of very experienced and composed professionals. Turn marshalls tend to be guys who have had multiple decades of experience working different races.



Are you kidding me? Unless the rider can be reached without endangering my workers, I am not going to have my guys get on a hot track and get killed trying to get a rider off the track. That is the first thing I tell the young'uns too eager to jump on the track so that they don't act heroes.

Think you misunderstood me. The way the tracks are responding now are correct for most cases, IMO.

 

[m_asim]

Think you misunderstood me. The way the tracks are responding now are correct for most cases, IMO.

Ok. Its late at night and I am hungry

 

[MtnRacer]

Very informative thread, thanks for the contributions guys.

Steve

 

[Lovedoc]

Jorbar has picked up Stoner and Lorenzo and has 7 FIM shows under his belt. God knows how many AFM's too.

- I have been told by an FIM medical official that riders don't die on the track, even if you are putting body parts in the ambulance seperately. Why? Nobody wants Monterey Sheriff or CHP stopping a race to investigate. IIRC, an Italian official was investigated for precisely this though.

- I almost guarantee that if this had happened at Laguna or Miller, one doctor or more would have beat the ambulance and a collar would have been used, UNLESS airway, breathing or circulation trumped C spine. Which it probably did here.

- Emergency procedures vary some from country to country and Malaysia is cited as a country where C-spine is less utilized. Probably they are slack about a number of things. Unbelievably perhaps, some international studies question the efficacy of Cspine precautions anyway.

- FIM is very picky about medical care at races. I'd estimate 15 docs are on course at Laguna and an experienced cadre of physicians runs the show. It is oddly difficult to find enough workers and I call for any EMT's out there to volunteer(get paid a little) next year, its a great show.

- A great talent was lost. All riders are warriors and know exactly what medical care they are likely to recieve before they ride. They are generally skeptical of the local EMS system and want Clinica Mobilia whenever possible.

 

[n10sive]

Good post Jobar. Having worked races (car and cart) as THE medical person on scene, there is a lot of good things in this thread.

I want to remind everyone how dangerous it is to be on the track when racing is going on by video. There are really only two ways to approach this scenario and the race organizers pick their poison:
1) Keep the race going and get it cleared as fast as possible (in Malaysia that is what? 1:30 if your lucky?)
2) Close the track for anyone that cannot get off of it under their own power.

I'm glad that the only races I have ever worked called for a cold track before I went out. I was better for me, and better for the patient.

Here's the video. It's graphic. There are more out there just like this.
GRAPHIC VIDEO

 

[DaveT319]

- I have been told by an FIM medical official that riders don't die on the track, even if you are putting body parts in the ambulance seperately. Why? Nobody wants Monterey Sheriff or CHP stopping a race to investigate. IIRC, an Italian official was investigated for precisely this though.

I understand that. Really I do. But that's about semantics more than reality. It's very likely Simoncelli died on the track yesterday. But it wasn't CALLED until 45 minutes later in the medical center. Yes, that's when he's OFFICIALLY dead, but that doesn't mean that's when he ACTUALLY died. He was dead in the back of the ambulance (remember the press conference by Race Direction where they said they started CPR in the ambulance because he was already in cardiac arrest?) and most likely dead before that.

But to me, that doesn't matter. I'm not saying the doctor needs to come out on the track and pronounce him on the spot. I'm simply saying more care needs to be taken with these riders who have obviously suffered traumatic and critical injuries. The focus should be moved from getting them off the track as fast as possible to providing the best care possible. That doesn't mean treat them on the spot. It does mean take better care getting him on the stretcher, and for fuck's sake take more care so that you don't drop them on the way to the ambulance. I know, in that situation, seconds count. But rushing so much that you drop them does not do them any good. Slow down a bit and get them to help safely.

And I'll say it yet again, because I don't want it to seem like I'm accusing the corner workers yesterday of contributing to Simoncelli's death: them dropping him likely had no effect on whether he lived or died. My suspicion is that he died on impact, so ANYTHING they would have done would not have made a difference. But them dropping him is STILL inexcusable.

 

[kiltwearinfool]

It will be interesting to see what kind of response the riders give to this incident.

I think it's a great idea for FIM to have criteria for who works Medical at races. Quite frankly, I'm astonished that they don't seem to have this. I'm not sure what we as "uninterested parties" (not racers, team owners, etc) can do about this? Who would we petition, the FIM? (a serious question)

Some ideas:
-Establishing a "benchmark of care" that meets the standards of care for the strictest country that the series travels to (immobilization techniques, CPR, etc).
-Contracting with local EMS providers that can provide said standard of care - local workers have a shared language, vs salaried workers that may speak a different language than where race is being held.
-Establishing specialized training for first responders so they understand the nuances of providing care on a "hot track"
-Adaptation of existing spine and other immobilization devises to work with helmeted/geared riders in a "hot track" scenario - specifically neck immobilization
-Use of PA system to make a "red flag" or "riders stopped" announcement, so Medical staff in corners have an expectation of some safety vs a race environment
-Alternate programming to be broadcast while riders are being worked on. This could even be a broadcast of Free Practice.

I'd also love to see the development of some kind of barrier that could be placed on-track around a downed rider that needed critical care until the ambulance arrived - but that is unlikely to happen.

 

[tzrider]

It will be interesting to see what kind of response the riders give to this incident.

Indeed. For all of the indignation coming from those of us for whom this will never really be an issue, there is a small cadre of guys who will see those images and think, "Those fools had better not drop ME."

 

[n10sive]

I'd also love to see the development of some kind of barrier that could be placed on-track around a downed rider that needed critical care until the ambulance arrived - but that is unlikely to happen.

I would guess that you haven't watched many races. They have them. They had some up for Marco.

This pic shows the variant Malaysia was using. There are other designs I have seen used.

 

[m_asim]

Here's the video. It's graphic. There are more out there just like this.
GRAPHIC VIDEO

Instead of one injured rider, they ended up having two injured folks and one fatality :|

This is why sending workers on the field provides nothing but possibility for more fatalities/injuries. The racers are aware of the risks they take when duelling on the track on high speed vehicles.

 

[DaveT319]

Which is maybe why they need to immediately stop the racers as they do in just about every other motorsport series. Or at least slow them way the fuck down, so the injured can get the help they need, safely.

 

[Bavarian3]

Glad to know that Laguna corner workers crew is mostly composed of very experienced and composed professionals. Turn marshalls tend to be guys who have had multiple decades of experience working different races.

ehhh....

few years back i corner worked there. me n my friends didnt know wtf we were doing, and were given very little direction.

we actually had to run out and pickup some redbull cup bikes after a wreck, wasnt too big of a deal, but fuck me if i had to deal with a situation like what happened at sepang or italy with tomizawa.

so ya....i wouldnt quite say its composed of experiened and composed proffessionals.......what do i know though

 

[JO EBRMC]

Which is maybe why they need to immediately stop the racers as they do in just about every other motorsport series. Or at least slow them way the fuck down, so the injured can get the help they need, safely.

There simply is no way to immediately enact a cold track. Everyone agrees that it is a great idea but it just doesn't work that way.

A pace car is the closest you can get to reducing the risk of a hot track but the fans, BARFers in particular, threw a fucking fit when AMA introduced pace cars.