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my latest DUI checkpoint experience

Probably shouldn't wade into this, but... :laughing



In our system -- like it or not -- you don't get to make that determination. Neither does the cop. That's a determination for the courts to decide later.

In the moment, if you are given an order by a cop, you have two choices -- obey, or disobey. You don't have a third option, "I can choose to ignore a lawful order" and everyone goes on about their business. Either way, if you obey or disobey, you can challenge whether or not it was a lawful order in court later, if it is important enough to you (or if the consequences are severe enough).

But you can't expect a cop on the side of the road to take your word for it that his orders are not "lawful" -- and our system says he doesn't have to take your word for it.

If he doesn't disobey, how does it go to court to be challenged? If he obeys, there is nothing to challenge, he willingly rolled down his window, just like he willingly rolled up to the checkpoint.
 
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If he doesn't disobey, how does it go to court to be challenged? If he obeys, their is nothing to challenge, he willingly rolled down his window, just like he willingly rolled up to the checkpoint.

somehow i knew you couldn't back out of this thread..:laughing
 
funny-pictures-disregard-females-acquire-currency.jpg
 
If he doesn't disobey, how does it go to court to be challenged? If he obeys, there is nothing to challenge, he willingly rolled down his window, just like he willingly rolled up to the checkpoint.

My point was simply (and maybe not made clearly) that the OP can't expect to simply say "that's not a lawful order" and have the cop take his word for it and let him go on his merry way. Neither the OP, nor the cop, nor you or I, get to make the decision as to whether or not a given order is lawful or not -- all we can do is choose to obey the order, or not, and then decide whether or not to challenge the lawfulness of the order later, in court.

And there is nothing special about obeying the order or not, for the purposes of challenging the lawfulness of the order. If the OP had been arrested, in his trial he could have challenged the lawfulness of the order, whether or not he obeyed. The only difference is that here, the OP didn't get arrested, so if he wanted to take the lawfulness of the order to court, he would have to do so by hiring a civil rights lawyer or something like that. But he could still challenge it, although it would probably get expensive if he had to go the civil rights route...
 
My point was simply (and maybe not made clearly) that the OP can't expect to simply say "that's not a lawful order" and have the cop take his word for it and let him go on his merry way. Neither the OP, nor the cop, nor you or I, get to make the decision as to whether or not a given order is lawful or not -- all we can do is choose to obey the order, or not, and then decide whether or not to challenge the lawfulness of the order later, in court.

And there is nothing special about obeying the order or not, for the purposes of challenging the lawfulness of the order. If the OP had been arrested, in his trial he could have challenged the lawfulness of the order, whether or not he obeyed. The only difference is that here, the OP didn't get arrested, so if he wanted to take the lawfulness of the order to court, he would have to do so by hiring a civil rights lawyer or something like that. But he could still challenge it, although it would probably get expensive if he had to go the civil rights route...
I find no fault with this post.
 
Probably shouldn't wade into this, but... :laughing



In our system -- like it or not -- you don't get to make that determination. Neither does the cop. That's a determination for the courts to decide later.

In the moment, if you are given an order by a cop, you have two choices -- obey, or disobey. You don't have a third option, "I can choose to ignore a lawful order" and everyone goes on about their business. Either way, if you obey or disobey, you can challenge whether or not it was a lawful order in court later, if it is important enough to you (or if the consequences are severe enough).

But you can't expect a cop on the side of the road to take your word for it that his orders are not "lawful" -- and our system says he doesn't have to take your word for it.

Regardless of your position, this is how it is. Acting like a child just made it a situation. The OP has a chip on his shoulder about checkpoints, why, because it would have taken 2 minutes out of his day had he been cooperative.

Arguing aside, the tone of 2strokeyardsale after the fact shows mental instability. References to cops eating guns and public hanging?
Bipolar much?
 
....Not exactly. You forfeit your fifth amendment right against self-incrimination and willingly participate in the state's prosecution. In fact there are only minor differences in how you say you would act and how I acted:

1. Roll down my window when asked to.
I rolled mine down partially before requested and said, "That's not a lawful order" when ordered.

2. Provide my DL, registration and proof of insurance when asked.
I provided my papers when demanded.

3. I am not required to answer if questioned on where I was, where I am going or what my purpose on this road is. It may be simpler to do so but not required.
Um yeah so what would you do? I wasn't asked and wouldn't respond if asked. (In the past I have given fuck-you answers like "East" and "West.")

4. If asked to step out of the car, do so but ask am I under arrest? Am I being detained and or Am I free to go?
I was ordered out of the car and I knew well before then I was being detained, not under arrest so there was no need to ask.

5. If asked to perform a FST do so.
I didn't refuse or consent I just didn't follow the supervisor's pen. FSTs are not subjective tests to determine impairment; they are merely a tool the state uses to rubber-stamp reasonable suspicion and then move on to the next steps in the prosection.

6. If inclined when released note the name and rank of each person encountered to process your complaint in a more direct personal manner.
I wish I had that memory. I bought a notebook last night. Also to be used to record time of day, and memorable quotes such as, "OK, I smell alcohol on your breath" and "Never let me see you around here again."

But if you want to get picky, the net result is we both go home.

1. By not initially complying with #1 you contribute to the the cops request for #4 and #5. My only point is you are not going to get out of rolling the window down or exiting your vehicle. You can influence their demeanor by refusing what they deem as a simple request. I am not arguing that the DUI check point is a violation of the 4th Amendment as is the request to roll your window down. Only that at the time of the stop and request you are not going to convince anyone on site of that.

3. You ask what I would do. Depends on who is with me and where I am actually going. If I have no where to be and time to kill I may reply with a question or two. I.E. why am I stopped and how the question pertains to why I was stopped. If I have someone with me or somewhere to be I will answer their questions as that will be the most expedient path to take.

4. By asking the question you start the magic 20min clock and you are allowing for the possibility of having this issue before a judge.

5. Again refusing to take the FST is a no win. Request a specific type of test such a blood or breath vs. balance or memory what ever. Take a test you will...

6. I carry in each vehicle a pen, note pad and disposable camera.
 
1. By not initially complying with #1 you contribute to the the cops request for #4 and #5. My only point is you are not going to get out of rolling the window down or exiting your vehicle. You can influence their demeanor by refusing what they deem as a simple request. I am not arguing that the DUI check point is a violation of the 4th Amendment as is the request to roll your window down. Only that at the time of the stop and request you are not going to convince anyone on site of that.
It seems to me that he would rather step out of his vehicle than to give an officer a reason to stick his head into it.
All the civil rights and defense lawyers say the same thing. Don't roll down the window any more than is necessary to provide documentation.

I guess they are all just causing trouble and making waves, too?

You are confusing Field sobriety tests, with actual scientific tests ... the blood/breath/urine tests. The terms aren't interchangeable.
 
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Fuck all this noise. I hate checkpoints because I ride my bike shitfaced all over the Bay Area. :x


:teeth
 
It seems to me that he would rather step out of his vehicle than to give an officer a reason to stick his head into it.

And this is fine -- but if you choose to go this route, you shouldn't be surprised if you get treated differently than the hundreds of others who don't go this route. Like it or not, legal or not, the person who sticks out from the crowd is going to garner more attention -- every time.

All the civil rights and defense lawyers say the same thing. Don't roll down the window any more than is necessary to provide documentation.

I guess they are all just causing trouble and making waves, too?

They suggest this for a specific reason -- to not provide the state with any evidence that could, or would, be used against you. They don't suggest this to keep you from being arrested, or to keep you from being harassed at the road side -- they do this so that later on, in court, your lawyer has more avenues to obtain an acquittal, or negotiate a better deal.

There are two issues here that are being confused -- what one might do to speed things up and avoid confrontation at a checkpoint, or after a traffic stop, and what one might do to ensure that the state has the hardest time convicting you in court. One is a short-term issue, the other is a long-term issue. And they really can't coexist -- what preserves your rights in court isn't what is going to speed you through a traffic checkpoint, as the OP found.

Most people take a middle ground -- if they feel that they have nothing to hide, they cooperate at the checkpoint or traffic stop, and then go on their merry way. If they are smart, and they have done something wrong, they shut up, and trade off an attempt to get out of the situation quickly in order to preserve defenses down the road.

Many people, in the second circumstance, are not smart, and talk themselves into a worse position than they would have been in if they shut up. And some people treat every interaction with the police as if they have to preserve all of their defenses -- which is what the OP did here.

I have seen the videos posted numerous times, and completely agree with the sentiment "never talk to the police" -- but I don't follow the advice all of the time myself, because (a) I've got better things to do most of the time than take the extra harassment than comes with such a plan, and (b) the chances of a truly innocent person talking themselves into trouble is pretty remote, even though it can happen. And I am not going to spend a lot of time and effort worrying about remote possibilities -- if you are one of those people who do, I would ask if you also wear a helmet when you drive, because that is also protection against a remote possibility.

And for those who are of the "use your rights or lose your rights" crowd, this sort of thing as described by the OP doesn't advance that cause in any way. Unless he complains, or sues, or does something that causes the officer, or the police force, or the state or the government to pay money, or reevaluate their position, etc., this does nothing to advance any cause. Civil disobedience works when it becomes more trouble for the state to keep arresting people than it does to change the law -- so long as the "disobedience" is limited to bitching about something on a message board with no follow-up, it doesn't do anything.
 
One good thing about check points is it gets the drivers without licenses and insurance off the road. :thumbup
 
And this is fine -- but if you choose to go this route, you shouldn't be surprised if you get treated differently than the hundreds of others who don't go this route. Like it or not, legal or not, the person who sticks out from the crowd is going to garner more attention -- every time.



They suggest this for a specific reason -- to not provide the state with any evidence that could, or would, be used against you. They don't suggest this to keep you from being arrested, or to keep you from being harassed at the road side -- they do this so that later on, in court, your lawyer has more avenues to obtain an acquittal, or negotiate a better deal.

There are two issues here that are being confused -- what one might do to speed things up and avoid confrontation at a checkpoint, or after a traffic stop, and what one might do to ensure that the state has the hardest time convicting you in court. One is a short-term issue, the other is a long-term issue. And they really can't coexist -- what preserves your rights in court isn't what is going to speed you through a traffic checkpoint, as the OP found.

Most people take a middle ground -- if they feel that they have nothing to hide, they cooperate at the checkpoint or traffic stop, and then go on their merry way. If they are smart, and they have done something wrong, they shut up, and trade off an attempt to get out of the situation quickly in order to preserve defenses down the road.

Many people, in the second circumstance, are not smart, and talk themselves into a worse position than they would have been in if they shut up. And some people treat every interaction with the police as if they have to preserve all of their defenses -- which is what the OP did here.

I have seen the videos posted numerous times, and completely agree with the sentiment "never talk to the police" -- but I don't follow the advice all of the time myself, because (a) I've got better things to do most of the time than take the extra harassment than comes with such a plan, and (b) the chances of a truly innocent person talking themselves into trouble is pretty remote, even though it can happen. And I am not going to spend a lot of time and effort worrying about remote possibilities -- if you are one of those people who do, I would ask if you also wear a helmet when you drive, because that is also protection against a remote possibility.
We aren't in disagreement, that I can see.
And for those who are of the "use your rights or lose your rights" crowd, this sort of thing as described by the OP doesn't advance that cause in any way. Unless he complains, or sues, or does something that causes the officer, or the police force, or the state or the government to pay money, or reevaluate their position, etc., this does nothing to advance any cause. Civil disobedience works when it becomes more trouble for the state to keep arresting people than it does to change the law -- so long as the "disobedience" is limited to bitching about something on a message board with no follow-up, it doesn't do anything.

Except here.
 
One good thing about check points is it gets the drivers without licenses and insurance off the road. :thumbup

I love that. When I lived in San Rafael the SRPD used to set up a checkpoint about once a month at the one road that led into the neighborhood where all the illegals lived. :laughing :cry :laughing
 
Except here.

How does what the OP did "advance the cause" or do anything to ensure that the cops don't infringe on his rights next time? Or infringe on the next guy's rights?

If the answer to that is "nothing," then how has this changed anything?
 
How does what the OP did "advance the cause" or do anything to ensure that the cops don't infringe on his rights next time? Or infringe on the next guy's rights?

If the answer to that is "nothing," then how has this changed anything?

Peaceful demonstrations and isolated incidents don't do anything. You have to hit them where it hurts. Lawsuits.
 
It's not the fiscal part of the lawsuit though, we know where government money comes from, it's the resulting negative media attention that they really don't like.
 
How does what the OP did "advance the cause" or do anything to ensure that the cops don't infringe on his rights next time? Or infringe on the next guy's rights?

If the answer to that is "nothing," then how has this changed anything?

You make it seem like it's an either/or proposition. I say file the grievances with the appropriate authorities AND try to convince anyone who will listen to do the same thing. Because one complaint doesn't change anything, either.
 
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