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NTSB recommends ABS / TC on all bikes

DataDan said:
Apparently you have never crashed due front tire lockup under braking. Good for you.

I have. I didn't like it. It's much less likely to happen on my ABS-equipped FJR.
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You weren't talking to me, I know, but yeah in 35 years and over half a million miles, in all weathers including snow and ice, I've never crashed due to locking my front wheel. In fact I don't recall ever locking my front wheel on the street.

I've locked the back wheel plenty and only crashed once because of it, in about 1985.

Like I said earlier, I'm happy that ABS is available for those who want and need it. I'm just not convinced I need it, and there are many who feel the same as me.
 
I lke this:
“Bosch plans to use side thrusters to stop motorcycle lowsiding”...
 
clutchslip said:
You have had need for it? Could you elaborate?
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I like that it doesn’t lock up, especially the rear wheel. Haven’t needed it, but I’ve practiced/tested it quite a bit on panic stops, in drizzly weather, on and off painted partts on the street and at intersections, and in turns. I’m not a fan of surprises.
 
I like the idea of abs, and the videos of full fist braking done on a hosed down piece of tarp impressed the hell out of me. I still run into scary moments though while lane splitting on my strom and going half brake over some choppy pavement (what else is new in the city) only to have the bike start jerking as it modulates the front brake, making what was a simple adjustment of speed into a wtf situation as the bike gets hard to control and I have to now apply MORE brake to get my speed down which screws up everything.

I think there should be an off option for abs, default it on whenever the bike is started, whatever. It's a common complaint for my bike since it's supposed to be "off road capable" but going on dirt with abs is an exercise in frustration and people end up yanking the fuse if they're going on dirt. Likewise, choppy pothole riddled pavement has a similar effect on the bike, giving false positives that make what should be a smooth well controlled stop into a jerky clumsy semi panicky maneuver.

I've had more issues with the abs kicking in during my lane splitting and low speed maneuvers with the 1.5 years I've had my strom than any braking issues I had in the 10 years I did the same on my 675.
 
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If ya never braked hard enough to lock the front....you’ll never know ABS is on the bike......cause you’ll never brake hard enough to activate it.

However, l, as have others have done so. So, it’s not a uncommon occurrence. Anything that helps a rider have more control over their motorcycle is a good thing.

Remember it takes time to become really good on the brakes. A new rider will benefit from anything that helps to keep them upright.

This.....”I’ve never needed it” attitude is a accident waiting to happen.
 
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DataDan said:
Apparently you have never crashed due front tire lockup under braking. Good for you...
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I can't say that I have. I have crashed when the front tire has reached it's maximum grip level a few times due to a combination of lean angle, poor surface, and braking. The World Superbike Ducatis are said to have a very good T/C system but that doen't stop Davies from tucking the front end. As far as skidding the front on a clean dry surface, never has happened but I have had the rear wheel in the air quite a few times with a max braking effort. But none of that is my point, my point was to let the consumer decide if they want these systems. I believe they are effective systems but for me I ride bikes with and without ABS/TC systems and it makes little difference to me.
 
Both of my Harleys have a ABS, and I probably won’t buy a new bike without it… I’ve been riding a long time and I am proficient at braking, but peace of mind is peace of mind.

edit: "freaking".... i hate my iphone autocorrect sometimes
 
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blackrat said:
I like the idea of abs, and the videos of full fist braking done on a hosed down piece of tarp impressed the hell out of me. I still run into scary moments though while lane splitting on my strom and going half brake over some choppy pavement (what else is new in the city) only to have the bike start jerking as it modulates the front brake, making what was a simple adjustment of speed into a wtf situation as the bike gets hard to control and I have to now apply MORE brake to get my speed down which screws up everything.

I think there should be an off option for abs, default it on whenever the bike is started, whatever. It's a common complaint for my bike since it's supposed to be "off road capable" but going on dirt with abs is an exercise in frustration and people end up yanking the fuse if they're going on dirt. Likewise, choppy pothole riddled pavement has a similar effect on the bike, giving false positives that make what should be a smooth well controlled stop into a jerky clumsy semi panicky maneuver.

I've had more issues with the abs kicking in during my lane splitting and low speed maneuvers with the 1.5 years I've had my strom than any braking issues I had in the 10 years I did the same on my 675.
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Eastern Beaver has a solution for you. Yes, this is not germane to the topic of the thread, but this could help you with your strom.
 
ontherearwheel said:
...
This.....”I’ve never needed it” attitude is a accident waiting to happen.
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No it is not. It is just the opposite if you have ridden in all kinds of conditions and not crashed. It means you have learned to ride within the conditions given and that you can brake without locking your wheels. The only time I ever locked the front with brakes was in the dirt. And that was my first year of riding. I have never locked the tires on asphalt. I have crashed, but never because of locking the brakes.
 
russ69 said:
...my point was to let the consumer decide if they want these systems.
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I agree 100%. I don't support an ABS requirement. I don't think traction control is anywhere near as valuable as ABS. And I don't think stability control even addresses the real cause of road departures in curves.

However, I do believe riders should be accurately informed about the likelihood of an overbraking crash and the value of ABS to prevent it.

Mine occurred 25 years ago on a familiar offramp that was a little greasy on a morning when I was taking it a little too hot. More common is overbraking in an emergency situation as shown here in a NTSB graph from data in the MCCS:

attachment.php


The second line, "MC falling on roadway in collision avoidance with OV" (other vehicle) and the seventh line, "MC falling on roadway (no OV involvement)", comprise 10% of all of the crashes investigated in the study.


Hurt's findings about crashes 40 years ago were similar. He wrote:
The execution of evasive action was correct in 15.6% of the accident cases, or 23.8% of the time some evasive action was attempted. A typical problem would be as follows: An oncoming automobile turns left in front of the motorcycle; the rider locks up the rear wheel by overbraking, slides out and falls to the roadway, and slides into the automobile. Another example would be as follows: With a violation of his right of way, the motorcycle rider applies both brakes, overbrakes at the front, locks up the front wheel, slides out, and falls to the roadway. Skidding from overbraking was the most common execution problem and usually resulted in loss of control of the motorcycle. ​
He concluded:
Antilock or antiskid braking systems have the potential of eliminating control problems from front or rear wheel overbraking, and perhaps promoting front wheel brake use. The greatest part of these accidents occurred on dry, high-friction surfaces, so the advantage of antilock or antiskid would be elimination of control problems and restoring deceleration on high friction surfaces. Of course, the benefits for low friction surfaces would be available, but those environment conditions are not highly associated with accidents.​
 
Sharky said:
This just in...NTSB confirms study that four wheel motorcycles are safer than those with only two wheels. Proposes all new motorcycles meet the 4 wheel safety guideline.
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Provided said four wheel motorcycles have been certified in a crash test, have roll over protection, and 27 airbags.
 
Also I wonder if have TC and ABS will affect the price of motorcycles if they do this? There are models that have ABS and don't have ABS and you pay the premium for the ABS. As ABS is is not important to me I would go for the cheaper one.
 
MapleRoad said:
Eastern Beaver has a solution for you. Yes, this is not germane to the topic of the thread, but this could help you with your strom.
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Thanks, I've been looking into that and it seems like a lot of people on ST.com are happy with it, along with the rigged systems others have implemented. I'm 95% pavement at this point and as I become more comfortable with moto camping it may end up becoming a necessity, but even today it engaged while moderate braking over some botts dots.

To others with ABS equipped bikes, does your bike have the option to turn it off? Im wondering if motos are going to go the car route with always on ABS and switchable TC or whether it was shortsightedness on Suzuki's part.
 
Sharky said:
This just in...NTSB confirms study that four wheel motorcycles are safer than those with only two wheels. Proposes all new motorcycles meet the 4 wheel safety guideline.
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Please point to one thing that is available to the general population that has been banned across the board as a result of exposing the individuals operating it to too much risk via a slippery slope caused by making it safer first.

People love this slippery slope argument but its just flatly not a thing that happens. The larger the group of motorcyclists in the US is, the more protection we have. Things that make bikes safer means a larger, more sustainable riding community, which means more possibility of nationwide lane splitting, more bikes purchased, and more money to build better bikes.

And yes, the less evolved ABS systems were still highly effective at reducing crash rates: https://www.iihs.org/frontend/iihs/documents/masterfiledocs.ashx?id=2042

And KTMs off-road ABS out brakes pro off-road riders:
http://www.advpulse.com/adv-videos/can-ktms-off-road-abs-out-stop-a-pro-racer-in-the-dirt/
 
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Oh and my S1000XR has the option to turn it off (I never do, even at the track), and my R1M doesn’t have the option to turn it off, and I haven’t noticed it, even when riding in A group and backing it in at the track.

SuperDuke has the option to turn it off, I put it in supermoto mode instead.

Suzuki’s cheaper electronic packages are not very good, so it’s not a surprise that a poorly suspended bike like a VStrom easily locks the wheel / triggers ABS. Bikes with underspec / soft suspension are gonna perform more poorly in braking across the board, ABS systems or not.
 
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blackrat said:
To others with ABS equipped bikes, does your bike have the option to turn it off? Im wondering if motos are going to go the car route with always on ABS and switchable TC or whether it was shortsightedness on Suzuki's part.
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Yes, my '13 Tiger is switchable via the dash.
 
There are some good recommendations in the NTSB report.
For those that did not read it.

To the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration:
1. Incorporate motorcycles in the development of performance standards for passenger vehicle crash warning and prevention systems.

This could be huge if I understand it. Make passenger car systems aware of two wheels.

2. Incorporate motorcycles in the development of performance standards for connected vehicle-to-vehicle systems.

Moto's connect their being there to car systems. Could be awesome for lane splitting.

3. Work with the Federal Highway Administration to incorporate
motorcycles in the development of performance standards for connected vehicle-to-infrastructure systems.

Same as above said a different way?

4. Require all new motorcycles manufactured for on-road use in the United States be equipped with antilock braking system technology.

5. Conduct or sponsor research to evaluate the effectiveness of stability control systems for motorcycles.

Good really.

6. Based on the research recommended in Safety Recommendation 5, develop and publish performance standards for stability control systems on motorcycles, and require systems meeting those standards on all new motorcycles manufactured for on-road use in the United States.

7. Examine the influence of alcohol and other drug use on motorcycle rider crash risk compared to that of passenger vehicle drivers, and develop guidelines to assist states in implementing evidence-based strategies and countermeasures to more effectively address substance-impaired motorcycle rider crashes.

8. Evaluate the effectiveness of state motorcycle licensing procedures for reducing motorcycle crashes, injuries, and fatalities among novice and unlicensed riders; based on the results of that evaluation, update the Guidelines for Motorcycle Operator Licensing or other guidance as appropriate

This one has come up at multiple CMSP Meetings. There is not a tool to know for sure, that training is effective and the potential to ultimately improve it.
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Some positive stuff... that will take years to get going (probably), but good in any case.
 
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