Odd and Confusing Prejudice - The Evil of Trail Braking

[christofu]

I if you are trail braking into a turn in the first place, it's a pretty good assumption that you are doing so in order to scrub off excess speed.

I also use trail braking to tighten my line. I'm often on the gas at the same time to maintain speed, while using the front brake to increase my lean angle and decrease my turn radius. However, my bike weighs 180 lbs and make only 55hp. Don't try this at home kids, I'm a trained idiot.

 

[kevo]

I would agree with you BUT I would like to suggest you target your message to rider that have the basics down. There are some people on barf that has not nor will not take the MSF course, which is their choice. And like alot of thing is this world learning the basics is important stuff.

FYI: I do use trail braking on certain conditions

I agree!


I didn't start using trailbraking until recently.
Because of being taught in MSF not to brake in a turn. I think it helped me more than not and I still try to get as braking as I can done before I tip in.

Trail braking is an advanced technique, which is probably why it isn't taught in MSF. A newer rider has enough if their attention spent on other more important things.

FWIW, I don't employ that technique.

 

[2StrokeGrrl]

Good post...I've been wanting to see others' take on this.

I’ve practiced (what I thought was) trail-braking for some time now without any ill effects. From the posts so far, it seems there is still confusion as to what it is, not to mention which brake to use.

In my experience, I have never used the front brake. For one, it seems rather awkward to try and grab (any amount of) the lever while you are concentrating on holding the bars in a given way, either a left or right hand turn. It would seem to be more awkard in a right hand turn, since you would be “pushing” on the right grip—I’m not sure of my terms here but is that the “countersteering” term I’ve heard? (please correct me if my terminology is incorrect here).

In any case, it seems to be something I have done for possibly the very wrong reason; that is, being in a corner potentially too hot – and not trusting that the bike can be leaned further than I might be comfortable with, so often I have lightly (very lightly) touched the rear brake. Sometimes I think I only do it for “reassurance” and probably haven’t done it hard enough to actually scrub off any perceptible speed. And yes, I’ve done it in mid-corner. From some of the responses here, it sounds like I’ve been fortunate to not receive any ill-effects from what may be an entirely wrong way to have done it. Then again, maybe it’s only “wrong” if it causes you to crash.

The closest I’ve felt to any ill-effects from this actually happened outside of SJ when I was riding down there a couple of weeks ago on my RD350. I don’t know the name of the road, but it’s out in the sticks adjacent to a Dam, I think it was on the way to Watsonville. I found myself going a little faster than I wanted in a pretty tight corner. I used the back brake – which isn’t very strong, as it’s a drum type – a little harder than I normally would. I did feel a perceptible bit of (rear) wheel slide and backed off the brake and was fine. It wasn’t enough to scare me, but it did help me to rethink doing this.

I find it much more of a problem riding downhill curves on 2-strokes, due to the free spinning nature (absence of engine braking). On my Z1000, the huge amount of engine braking – which, even after 11 months, I’m still getting used to, to some extent, precludes just about any need for trail braking.

Regarding MSF: I wonder if the advanced classes have a different take on this.

 

[V4]

MSF teaches the basic fundamentals of riding and keep it simple for the new & potential riders not to overwhelm them....after all its just a 2 day course/2 day class sessions...

people who haven't yet developed the skills/techniques/senses of how a motorcycle reacts to inputs (proper or not) often grab the brakes hard in an unforeseen situation which sometimes can cause more of a hazard than preventing one...

I think its best just keeping it simple in the beginning and let the students learn for themselves the more advanced stuff...

the Advanced Riding Course will drill ya on some very technical braking techniques...

Track Schools will train ya for even more performance oriented braking ....

It's all about taking baby steps, one step at a time ...gotta learn to walk before running....

Overall, it's up to the individual to figure out what works or not for them......

 

[kxmike]

I also use trail braking to tighten my line. I'm often on the gas at the same time to maintain speed, while using the front brake to increase my lean angle and decrease my turn radius. However, my bike weighs 180 lbs and make only 55hp. Don't try this at home kids, I'm a trained idiot.

I use the same technique with my r6. I never really decifered why I do it...just feels like the thing to do. Alot of my skills come from years of racing MX and sometimes I'm not too sure if it's the correct method to use on pavement, but I figure if I'm going fast and not crashing, I must be doing something right.

 

[donoman]

I use trailbraking all the time. It's fun.

I'd rather teach trailbraking than rear braking.

Michaeln, you're kinda mean to noobs, i mean last year you didn't know how to remove your rear wheel.

 

[Deeter]

As one of the Good Guys and an MSF instructor perhaps you could shed some light on this. It seems that for some reason many come out of MSF courses thinking wrongly about certain things. One example is trail braking as it seems that many seem to take away the message "YOU CANNOT BRAKE IN A TURN" rather than "Braking in a turn is an advanced skill". Are people really being taught that braking in a turn is always bad/impossible or are they actually being taught that it is an advanced skill but are mistakenly taking away that it is bad or impossible?

Jason, that is an excellent point and one that I think has been somewhat overlooked in the world of new-rider training. I suspect that part of the reason it isn't mentioned is that to mention it would require to explain it, and to explain it would really require an exercise for them to do in order to understand it properly, and suddenly, we've got another 30-45 minutes of class time to add on to an already overloaded amount of time.

I guess the question is are folks being taught things that the instructors know are not fully accurate in order to facilitate surviving the class and the first few months on the street or are students misunderstanding and oversimplifying what they are being taught?

No, we do not feed misinformation. We will never deliberately say, "You NEVER brake in a turn." If we make a qualifier like that, it will be "You will NEVER brake in a turn while in this class". Students may extrapolate that what's true for the class is true for the street, for always, and that may be an unintended side-effect.

But unfortunately, we don't have time to properly discuss the all the differences between "in here" and "out there" and "these basic skills you're learning now" and "those advanced skills that you may, and hopefully will, end up becomming familiar with and applying properly, later."

And finally, let's all be honest with ourselves. Have you EVER had to use trail braking when you were out riding in a manner that adhered to the laws of the road like following the speed limits (even the orange ones posted at the entrance of turns ) and using the 2-second MINIMUM following distance. If you did was it a rare exception, or the rule?

 

[budbandit]

In terms of doing things right I would place far heavier emphasis on the NOT CRASHING than the GOING FAST.

I use the same technique with my r6. I never really decifered why I do it...just feels like the thing to do. Alot of my skills come from years of racing MX and sometimes I'm not too sure if it's the correct method to use on pavement, but I figure if I'm going fast and not crashing, I must be doing something right.

 

[mud]

Jason, that is an excellent point and one that I think has been somewhat overlooked in the world of new-rider training. I suspect that part of the reason it isn't mentioned is that to mention it would require to explain it, and to explain it would really require an exercise for them to do in order to understand it properly, and suddenly, we've got another 30-45 minutes of class time to add on to an already overloaded amount of time.



No, we do not deliberately feed misinformation. We will never ever ever say, "You NEVER brake in a turn." If we make a qualifier like that, it will be "You will NEVER brake in a turn while in this class". Students may extrapolate that what's true for the class is true for the street, for always, and that may be a an side-effect.

But unfortunately, we don't have time to properly discuss the all the differences between "in here" and "out there" and "these basic skills you're learning now" and "those advanced skills that you may, and hopefully will, end up becomming familiar with and applying properly, later."

And finally, let's all be honest with ourselves. Have you EVER had to use trail braking when you were out riding in a manner that adhered to the laws of the road like following the speed limits (even the orange ones posted at the entrance of turns ) and using the 2-second MINIMUM following distance. If you did was it a rare exception, or the rule? [/B]

FWIW, when I took the MSF course in Alameda, midturn braking was taught but discouraged for new riders. It was explained, demonstrated, and practiced with the preface that it was a last-ditch effort to stop quickly when faced with imminent danger. It was both shown in those silly videos as well as on the range. Granted, we were going 15 mph in a parking lot.

 

[Deeter]

FWIW, when I took the MSF course in Alameda, midturn braking was taught but discouraged for new riders. It was explained, demonstrated, and practiced as with the preface that it was a last-ditch effort to stop quickly when faced with imminent danger. It was both shown in those silly videos as well as on the range. Granted, we were going 15 mph in a parking lot.

Was it mid-turn braking, or mid-turn straighten & brake?

 

[squid vicious]

FWIW, when I took the MSF course in Alameda, midturn braking was taught but discouraged for new riders. It was explained, demonstrated, and practiced with the preface that it was a last-ditch effort to stop quickly when faced with imminent danger. It was both shown in those silly videos as well as on the range. Granted, we were going 15 mph in a parking lot.

THat's panic stops in the middle of a turn, where you stand the bike up, square the bars and stop. Yes, that was taught in the MSF and has saved my ass once already. WHat we're talking about is using the brakes WHILE leaned over for the purposes of adjusting your speed/line while continuing through the turn.

 

[Robert R1]

Most of the riders are barely going fast enough through a turn to keep the wheels rolling. Why teach them to slow down even more!

Besides, with their undeveloped skills and their surivival reactions kicking in all the time, their idea of "trail braking" will be to grab and handful and tuck the front.

 

[RickyHayden]

Trail breaking has save my ass a couple of times on roads that im am not so familiar with...especially the turns that have a narrowing radius after what you thought was the apex!!

If for some reason im not holding my line and understeering a turn I just give it a little front brake and it dips the front of the bike right back into the turn....thus being able to hold my line!!

Maybe I have a bad habbit of coming into a turn too hot but I like braking in a turn it feels comfortable too me!

But I dont suggest it to people right out of the MSF course because it is easy to wash out the front by giving it too much brake!

 

[mud]

Was it mid-turn braking, or mid-turn straighten & brake?

It was both. We practiced both the panic braking of standing the bike upright and pulling oh-shit stops as well as braking with the bike as leaned over as one can get at 15 mph and gradually increasing brake pressure as the bike rights.

Of course, the explained purpose of both applications was to help out in oh-shit situations.

 

[budbandit]

Thanks for clarification on this. I can see the desire not to open a can of worms in a class where the goal is to get people to survive. My hat is off to you guys brave enough to be in the same parking lot as a bunch of newbies still trying to figure out which one is the gas and which one is the brake. That experience would likely make me nervous as hell.

As for having to use trail braking while obeying the law...that is different from using trail braking while obeying the law. It is possible that I could obey the law and refrain from trailbraking but even when making a casual right off El Camino to my apt I am likely to trail brake into the corner as one event flows into the other. Not saying that most people ride like I do or even that they should (they should not) but this technique has become deeply ingrained in my personal style so I grew curious as to why many would suggest that it is either impossible or bad.

Hope you are staying out of trouble with the new R1 ;-)

Jason, that is an excellent point and one that I think has been somewhat overlooked in the world of new-rider training. I suspect that part of the reason it isn't mentioned is that to mention it would require to explain it, and to explain it would really require an exercise for them to do in order to understand it properly, and suddenly, we've got another 30-45 minutes of class time to add on to an already overloaded amount of time.



No, we do not feed misinformation. We will never deliberately say, "You NEVER brake in a turn." If we make a qualifier like that, it will be "You will NEVER brake in a turn while in this class". Students may extrapolate that what's true for the class is true for the street, for always, and that may be an unintended side-effect.

But unfortunately, we don't have time to properly discuss the all the differences between "in here" and "out there" and "these basic skills you're learning now" and "those advanced skills that you may, and hopefully will, end up becomming familiar with and applying properly, later."

And finally, let's all be honest with ourselves. Have you EVER had to use trail braking when you were out riding in a manner that adhered to the laws of the road like following the speed limits (even the orange ones posted at the entrance of turns ) and using the 2-second MINIMUM following distance. If you did was it a rare exception, or the rule? [/B]

 

[RickyHayden]

I have never used the front brake. For one, it seems rather awkward to try and grab (any amount of) the lever while you are concentrating on holding the bars in a given way, either a left or right hand turn. .

IMO My middle finger is always covering the front brake.....well atleast 90% of the time!

Maybe if you were to try and cover the brake before entering the turn it would feel so awakward to try and reach or grab the lever!! When in fact is just a nice easy squuueeezzzz!!( I maybe wrong....just what works for me)

Upgraded brakes and lines help alot too...just a single touch with one finger can do all I need to do with the front brake leaning over in a turn!

 

[kxmike]

In terms of doing things right I would place far heavier emphasis on the NOT CRASHING than the GOING FAST.

I don't generally encounter problems when I'm riding slow (speed limit). It's when I pick up the speed that I start having "incidences" (no crashes though ).
That's why the emphasis was on on "going fast".

 

[kxmike]

IMO My middle finger is always covering the front brake.....well atleast 90% of the time!

Maybe if you were to try and cover the brake before entering the turn it would feel so awakward to try and reach or grab the lever!! When in fact is just a nice easy squuueeezzzz!!( I maybe wrong....just what works for me)

Upgraded brakes and lines help alot too...just a single touch with one finger can do all I need to do with the front brake leaning over in a turn!

I use one finger on the brake (in turns) also (actually feels uncomfortable when I DON'T cover the lever)...it's just something you have to practice to get comfortable with.
A problem I've recently figured out about myself though, is that I tend to use one finger for ALL my braking and I'm not getting the power out of it like I could with 2 fingers. I'm thinking of taping my two fingers together so I can break the one finger habit.

Any body else just use one finger?....... (for braking)

 

[budbandit]

I believe GaryJ has mentioned one finger braking. I use two and either I am too weak or my brakes are not good enough for comfortable one finger work. I have a feeling the one finger stuff will work much better on the killer new supersports than on aging tour pigs.

 

[Robert R1]

1 or 2 or 3 finger braking is simply personal preference. If someone tries to tell you that 1 finger is superior to 2 or vice versa, they are full of shit. Go with what's comfortable for you.