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Overall Motorcycle Safety: What do I tell the naysayers?

I hope you aren't left handed. According to some of the geniuses in the classified section left handed people crash more. 20 years riding and still waiting for my creative brain to kill me.

Better than being a moron I guess?

http://www.newscientist.com/article...perils-of-living-in-a-righthanded-world-.html

Coren conducted a survey of 1896 students at the university over four years. He found that the probability that a left-handed student had a car accident was 85 per cent higher than for a right-hander. The probability of a left-hander getting hurt while using tools was 54 per cent higher. Left-handers were also 49 per cent more likely to have an accident at home, 20 per cent more likely to experience a work-related accident, and 20 per cent more likely to suffer a sporting injury.
 
Better than being a moron I guess?

http://www.newscientist.com/article...perils-of-living-in-a-righthanded-world-.html

Coren conducted a survey of 1896 students at the university over four years. He found that the probability that a left-handed student had a car accident was 85 per cent higher than for a right-hander. The probability of a left-hander getting hurt while using tools was 54 per cent higher. Left-handers were also 49 per cent more likely to have an accident at home, 20 per cent more likely to experience a work-related accident, and 20 per cent more likely to suffer a sporting injury.

I guess I'm exceptionally awesome. Not only am I creative and artistic, I can ride a motorcycle in high stress situations without crashing it. God it feels good to be this incredible.
 
All the above is true. Ride with your BRAIN! Don't let the stats scare you away, you've got the right approach, do ur training, wear proper gear, keep asking/reading BARF for advices and enjoy the show!!

In over 10 years of riding supersports, never been involved in an accident with a car. I've broken a clavicle in the twisties but I got cocky, lesson learned. Know ur limits, accept them and ride in ur comfort level and you'll be fine.

The rest is part of life... Unexpected!
 
42 years riding (I'm 55), a notable amount of that time doing stupidness, been on the ground a few times, still in one piece and no hospital time ever. It can be done. But to the OP, what is your vision of riding? What about it attracts you? What motorcycles seem to be catching your attention? Have any friends that ride? What is your car driving like? Tell us more.
 
All the above is true. Ride with your BRAIN! Don't let the stats scare you away, you've got the right approach, do ur training, wear proper gear, keep asking/reading BARF for advices and enjoy the show!!

In over 10 years of riding supersports, never been involved in an accident with a car. I've broken a clavicle in the twisties but I got cocky, lesson learned. Know ur limits, accept them and ride in ur comfort level and you'll be fine.

The rest is part of life... Unexpected!

That's just it- use your brain. People can make up formulas on why you are going to crash or say this group or that group will end in doom. At the end of the day you just need to ride your own ride and use your head. Do what you can do reduce the risk. Easy things to reduce the risk might be things like not crossing over the double yellow line on a blind turn, wearing the proper gear, and getting training. The more tools you have in your toolbox, the happier you'll be at the end of your ride. Training is a giant tool that is readily available that many noobs don't take advantage of.
 
But to the OP, what is your vision of riding? What about it attracts you?

for now i mostly just wanna ride on the weekends and enjoy a nice leisurely ride. nothing crazy in any twisties yet or anything too fast. i like the feeling of the air, the sun, the freedom :)

What motorcycles seem to be catching your attention? Have any friends that ride? What is your car driving like? Tell us more.

i am looking at the ninja 500 or the suzuki gs500f. i like the sport styling but the upright seating is nice.

Have any friends that ride?

yes, a few. my best friend rides a honda cbr 600 and itd be cool to go on rides with him.

What is your car driving like?

i have a 2006 scion tc, lowered 2" and has a rear sway bar. i don't drive it crazy, but i like to take corners hard. it's fun to drive. i drive "spirited" but i dont drive unsafely. i never cut people off, put anyone in danger, always use my blinker, etc..
 
It is dangerous compared to driving a car. The death rate is 20 times higher per mile. The odds improve a lot with experience. Sportbike riders are more likely to die than cruiser or standard riders, though asshat riding can get you killed on a Vespa. Higher death rates may be related to reckless souls choosing those bikes rather than that much inherent danger to the bikes themselves.

Crashing is a game of chance. A surprising number of crashes end with little or no physical injury. Yet it's amazing the amount of injury sustained and survived by riders, and how little it takes to die sometimes.

Some riders seem to think crashes are a sign of toughness and a macho disregard for risk. I am really embarrassed by mine, all at the track, and really hate to damage a bike.
 
Mr. Davis, the odds of a lifetime of riding with no crashes are not in your favor.

That said, I have 4 or 5 friends who've been ridng since the late 60's-early 70's and have never crashed. (crash being defined as falling, running into something, going off the road, while travelling at normal or faster speeds, and specifically excluding racetrack activities, and dirt riding, and a couple of those guys tell me they haven't even crashed doing those!)
My own experience is probably standard for most of us who've been riding for 20 years or longer.
I crashed 4 times within the first 8 years of my riding life. Got my first bike in 1969 and crashed it twice within the first year, and then crashed twice more between 1975 and 1977. The first two are attibutable to gross inexperience and lack of proper training (MSF didn't exist, and typical "rider training" consisted of a more experienced friend basically saying; "here's the throttle, here's the clutch, and these are the brakes, good luck". The second two were the result of more, but not enough experience; thought I was hot shit, but wasn't.

I was very lucky to have survived the "school of hard knocks", some of my friends didn't.
Since 1977, I've never crashed on the road. I've done a couple of brain-fart parking lot drops, and fallen riding in the dirt a few times.

I attribute that to the fact that each of my four previous crashes covered one of the most common reasons for motorcycle crashes (never fallen victim to a "left turner" though). After each of the four crashes, I never made the same mistake again. Two of those crashes were technically the fault of someone else, but I immediately recognised what I had done wrong to contribute to the crash, and never layed blame on anyone but myself.
All of my hard-earned lessons are available in the Beginning Rider's Course.

Several people have touched on the subject of risk management in this thread. That's what it's all about. Surviving life is about risk management. You can do that either by never engaging in behavior that has a high risk of injury or death, or you can engage in some of those activities, while taking steps to manage the aspects of those behaviors that contribute to the risk.
You can double your chances of survival (survival meaning no bad consequences at all) by not drinking, and not riding too fast. From there, it's a matter of absorbing the msf training thouroughly, developing the habits and instincts that it takes to avoid bad situations, being always alert and aware of your surroundings as far around you as you can see/hear.

<edit>

Here's something you can present to your friends who are predicting your demise due to motorcycle riding.

Just did a quick search for some "death statistics". I couldn't find information from the same year, so these numbers could be disputed, but they probably give a reasonably accurate picture.

For the year covered (2002) I found a total of 43,354 accidental deaths due to motor vehicle accidents, or 44% of the total.
The same year, 13,332 people died in falls.
I found motorcycle death statistics for 2006, which listed a total of 4,778 deaths. Assuming similar statistics for the previous two causes of accidental deaths in 2006, that means that somewhere around 10-12% of all vehicle related deaths were motorcyclists. And that twice as many people die falling off ladders, out of trees, and off roofs than die riding motorcycles.
(Data Dan will undoubtedly show up to correct inconcistencies, or provide more appropriate sets of numbers, but I doubt that will change the overall comparison by much)

These numbers don't break down the numbers of people who ride motorcycles compared with the numbers of people who drive cars or climb ladders, but they do suggest that death is a possibility for many other things that people do on a daily basis.
 
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Good questions.

The statistics about motorcycling death are often skewed by the media, so the public's perception of the risk is wrong in a lot of ways. In Motostats 2006 I tried to debunk some of the myths by analyzing US data for that year. In Motostats 2008, I looked in detail at fatal Bay Area crashes 2006-2008 and their causes.


My feeling is that a new rider can expect his riding risk to reflect general attitudes he has developed over the years. In this post on attitude and risk I pose several questions to think about, such as:
How much of a risk-taker are you? Everyone who rides enjoys a certain measure of risk, but risk affinity among riders still varies considerably. There's an odd paradox about motorcycling: It attracts risk seekers, but it rewards the more risk averse.

Do you have a healthy fear of crashing? Bart Simpson's hero in the field of death defiance, Captain Lance Murdoch, observed: "Bones heal, chicks dig scars, and the United States of America has the best doctor-to-daredevil ratio in the world." Once again, a poor attitude for a motorcyclist. Some crashes are relatively harmless, resulting in painful but survivable (and manly) injuries while others are deadly. If you're not too worried about crashing because you're young and resilient, think again. A damaged spinal cord doesn't repair itself, severed limbs don't grow back, and a titanium plate to replace a missing bit of skull is no substitute for the real thing.


In Risky Business I argue that risk-taking is inherently human--it helped make us what we have become over the past hundred thousand years. Modern society tries to eliminate risk from our lives, but our nature remains, so we invent ways to experience it. However, the risk we subject ourselves to isn't simply the odds of random external events; it's a product of our tolerance, perception, and adjustments: We tune risk to our preference. And the way to reduce it to an acceptable level is to understand specific risks in detail and adopt compensating tactics.


Attitude and strategy for reducing crash risk are part of the main focus of 1Rider.
 
I don't think bright colors help much.

As one example of many, I was almost run over by a guy who looked right at me a second before when I was on my bicycle wearing a high viz yellow windbreaker. I asked him WTF and he apologized and said he never "saw" me. He was in another world, and just wasn't paying attention.

I firmly believe we really only "see" things that pose a threat to us. We don't pose a threat to cars, so for the most part they ignore us.

We all know we would not see a flaming elephant charging us if we are properly distracted. However I know that I notice bicycle riders, motorcycle riders and joggers/walkers a lot faster if they are wearing bright clothing. If a safety vest allows even just 1 person to see you faster than it has done the job. And realistically it alerts a good deal of the mildly distracted people of your presence.

Of course I still pretend I cannot be seen by a single person but I like to stack the odds in my favor and I know a bright safety vest does just that.:nerd

Oh, and I also don't believe in the idea that you will crash at some point no matter what. I accept the fact that it might happen and that I cannot control every possible situation, but I go about every day with the idea that I will do everything I can to not crash and believe it is entirely possible to never crash. I think it should be "those who have crashed, and those who might crash...or might not".:thumbup
 
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So, as I've been telling people I'm getting a bike, I've gotten the usual mix of "Wow! That's cool!" and "What?!? You're gonna die!"

So, I'd like some honest answers. Even if I take the MSF, get the safest gear, and ride conservatively, what are the chances I'll get hurt? Seems like everyone I know (including myself) knows someone that has been broken something or died in a moto accident.

So, what makes you keep riding personally? What do I tell the naysayers? Personally, I am doing it because I don't wanna be old and look back on this time in my life, being single, with disposable income, and says "Aw, I wish I woulda just DONE it." I've always wanted to, and I've delayed it because of the safety concerns, but now I'm just saying "screw it". I'm gonna do it, and I'm gonna be as safe as possibly, not drink and ride, and not let my ego get bigger than my ability.

Thoughts?

Riding is my passion. I started riding back in the mid 80's. Eventually stopped after I got married (not his gig, and we got into horses, which will keep you too poor to afford other hobbies :facepalm), got divorced and back into it about 4 years ago. Why? Because every spring, I'd see the sportbikes coming out, and it just hurt to not be riding. I've had my Gixxer for 3-1/2 years, I ride only on weekends, rarely during winter, and I've put about 34,000 miles on it. I can't imagine walking away from it again. No matter how good life is, it's better with riding. No matter how bad life gets, riding makes it better.
I've got a lot of years of street riding, and quite a few track days, under my belt, and I haven't crashed. I've had some friends crash... most haven't. I've lost someone very special out of my life due to a motorcycle fatality. The same week, I also lost someone very special out of my life due to a car fatality.
We're all born dying... I choose to live as well and as fully as I can before that happens.
When someone who doesn't ride tells you you're going to crash/die/whatever, ask them if they know anyone who's either been in a car crash or died in a car crash. Most people know someone who's been in a car crash- at that point, give the same reaction to them, "Oh my god! How can you ever get in a car again??? You could die!!"
Life is fatal. Enjoy it as much as you can while you've got it.

Life isn't safe if you're actually living.

Get the best gear you can afford and wear it. Get as much training as you can afford and apply it. Keep your focus at all times and never, ever ride impaired in any way (emotionally, physically or mentally).

Then you swing a leg over and roll the dice...

THIS.

Wearing gear and riding smart helps mitigate the risks, but it is not perfect.

My favorite line in regards to all this;

"There are two kinds of riders. Those who have been down, and those who will go down."

I think you'll find a majority of the members on BARF are in the first category, including myself.

I do NOT believe that. Just as you can go through life without crashing a car, I believe 100% you can go through life not crashing your motorcycle. I believe we create/manifest many of the situations that occur in life. I wear full gear, hold a lot in reserve, and maintain situational awareness at all times on the bike. But crashing is not an option. Remove that as an option from your consciousness, and always ride with the mindset that you WILL get home safely. You then need to take every step possible to make that happen!
And when you're "not feeling it"- DON'T RIDE.
 
...Even if I take the MSF, get the safest gear, and ride conservatively, what are the chances I'll get hurt?

The best indicator of your inherent ability is to look at your bicycle and automobile driving record. If you are falling off your bicycle you'll be falling off your motorcycle, it's that simple. It's really the same skill set and I have never seen anyone that has had an alternate experience to their bicycle riding record. Even beyond that if you are fast on a bicycle you'll be fast on a motorcycle. If you didn't ride a bicycle, you have some catching up to do. Same thing for the car, if your car is getting dented and "things" just seem to happen to you then your motorcycle time is going to be difficult.
That's the sum of what is likely to happen but how can you reduce your risk? You have a good head start with the MSF school, if you paid attention there is plenty of good information there. The other big factor, as someone has already said is pick the time and place where and when you ride. Two lane roads with little cross traffic are safer than city streets or the freeway. Although it's easy to pile up on a twisty road, cars in the city can really do some serious damage to a motorcyclist. Stay safe.

Thanx, Russ
 
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Steven,

The choice has to come from within. Riding the moto does increase risk and like many others have said mitigating the danger is the key to controlling your own destiny in many ways. But we have seen many hurt by others as Riddler's comment means.

However if you look at Data Dan's insight.. which always rocks.. you will find that most of the time we do it to ourselves. Looking at those specific items it comes back to being well trained, well geared and well of mind.

I drive like I ride.. so mental training is almost always going on. Being aware like I don't have a cage around me keeps me looking for the tools that create danger. Start there now.. while you are driving scanning and finding potential dangers. I have never been in an auto accident and driving like I am riding has saved me more than once.

It is hard to get that hightened sense of danger when in a car.. but you don't have to have that to train your eyes and mind to increase the awareness of others. Every driveway, dog, yellow light situation and on and on are tools we can put in our tool box for when we ride.

I think that bright colored clothing, practicing in parking lots, getting advance training, covering the brake on city streets or commuter traffic, wearing all the right gear etc. etc.. will have a benefit. It won't every time, but odds are it will at some point.

We will be hitting most of these things in our next Podcast with Live 105. All about being a beginning rider and making it work for the life time of enjoyment on two wheels.

I am another who wants to live and is willing to take a few chances to live it well.
Motorcycling more than any other sport has brought me the good life. There are some very wise words in this thread and many of us have said them before...and will again.

Best of luck absorbing the wisdom and enjoying the ride. :ride

:smoking
 
Someone needs to put together some code that will automatically refer these types of questions to "The Adventures of Ozymandias" ... :laughing

Beyond that, everyone has already hit the main responses - yes riding is dangerous, but so is skydiving, scuba diving, rock climbing, visiting the in-laws, etc. You can live your life in a sterile bubble and die of boredom, or you can live your life doing what you want. It's your choice.
 
I think I asked myself a lot of the same questions as thread poster. FWIW, I offer my thought process. Just an opinion.

Six years ago, I began working 20 miles away, which was the longest commute I have ever had, having had the luxury of close jobs for years.

At the time, I kept thinking about alternatives to the fuel consumption lifestyle in my car. I considered m-cycles immediately, but it took me years to overcome fuss and change and expense and just do it. I owned a Honda 350 in the early 70s and hadn't ridden since. I sold it because I couldn't easily carry my gear (I am a musician).

For the first month of owning my bike, having not ridden for 37-years, there were a few flashes to terror, mostly at LOW speed, because I had forgot about handling in all those years. That's where the MS clases comes in handy, I reckon. And I'm an all-gear all the time guy, too. Hot in summer.

Most people were cool, a few gave me the "but you'll die" speech. But I examined those people and their lives, seeking some kind of wisdom about it. One person, the most adamant, has a husband who is a pediatrician. They lives lives of maximum safety, bla-bla-bla. The guy was leaving an x-ray lab and was beaten almost to death by black muggers who decided to pound a skinny white guy just for the hell of it (yes, this really happened). So much for all those years of living in safety. Another person, a woman who controls her husband and son waaay too much and would NEVER allow them on a motorcycle, is a chronic speeder who managed to run her car off of a road into a ditch that most of us go right by. She has seen me on the commute, going the speed limit, and thinks I drive too slow. She's tellin' me about safety and I know she does not have control of her vehicle. All that fear, all that control and all that hypocrisy, and for what?

Everybody dies and life isn't multiple choice. Most people spend at least a part of their life living as though they aren't going to die and it's funny. I admit, spending a part of your life living on a feeding tube is a much bigger concern than just dying, in fairness. That's a burden on others. And that's why many people with kids at home don't ride, then return to it in middle-age with the empty nest.

As a poster above said, you think about risk management everyday of your life, informally or formally. I think you already are a conscious risk-management person or you wouldn't be asking. I think you'll be safer if you have nothing to prove. I think you will find yourself most vulnerable to self-caused accidents at first. After that, you are at risk from the randomness of life. And always, don't do anything beyond your comfort level. I am convinced some people just don't have that capacity, to know their limitations, other stretch them on purpose or feel pressured to do so. As Mayor Clint said in a movie "A man's got to know his limitations." All genders, of course. Use that mantra, I do and it help me all through life, accepting what I can't change or predict and not wasting time asking about fairness.

The only reason I would stop riding at this point would be physical infirmity OR, and this is big, if I found myself unable to stay very mentally focused during my ride. In a car, you can practically sleep-walk with much lesser consequences to yourself. What scares me are sudden turners, and cell phone people. They latter are not alert and you have to do the thinking for them, frankly. If you can't live with that, don't ride.. To repeat in another way, because I commute on my bike (I don't ride on weekends at all), I have discovered what everyone else knows: it's easier to drive a car. You can be lazier, you don't need balance etc etc. You can eat, listen to the radio, chew your fingernails, whatever. Hell, on a bike you can't even stop a sneeze! Are you up for that?

Another poster made a brilliant point. If you are accident-prone in other spheres, you probably will be on a bike. If I was accident-prone, I don't think I would ride. I have accident-prone people in my family and I have had three cousins killed on motorcycles. So, it was a sobering decision to ride and remains so.

Fear-based living isn't living, whether its on a motorcycle or in your personal relationships. Proceed with caution, but proceed.
 
Beyond that, everyone has already hit the main responses - yes riding is dangerous, but so is skydiving, scuba diving, rock climbing, visiting the in-laws, etc. You can live your life in a sterile bubble and die of boredom, or you can live your life doing what you want. It's your choice.

QFT

As a skydiving, scuba diving, rock climbing biker I totally agree. I tell people that I engage in risky activities as safely as I can... I have also talked a few people out of participating in those hobbies, it's not for everyone. Some people should just bowl.

The messed up part is I have seen death in all those hobbies. A few of those deaths were mentors. So when I see someone who's skills and judgement are better than mine but they die... It's hard. So I stay paranoid and do my best, so far it's been good enough. :ride paranoia and luck ftw.
 
Frankly, I think trying to pretend you can ever be invincible on the street, and telling new riders the same, is more dangerous than acceptance of the fact that you will probably go down. Giving up is not helpful, but neither is ignoring the risk.



This is where gear and attitude can really come in handy. My biggest incident got me a gash on the arm, 13 stitches, and some road rash on my knee. If I had been squidding it up and wearing less gear, it would have been way worse.

Actually you kinda messed that saying up a little bit.
It goes ride like you're INVISIBLE, because to most other drivers you are.

Not invincible as in cannot die, Invisible as in cannot be seen.
While you are riding, unless you are in front of a car, it is likely
they probably don't know you are there and can merge into you
at any time. So you should make sure
you don't ride in their blind spots, or on the side of their car etc etc.
 
Actually you kinda messed that saying up a little bit.
It goes ride like you're INVISIBLE, because to most other drivers you are.

Not invincible as in cannot die, Invisible as in cannot be seen.
While you are riding, unless you are in front of a car, it is likely
they probably don't know you are there and can merge into you
at any time. So you should make sure
you don't ride in their blind spots, or on the side of their car etc etc.

umm, no, I think he meant "invincible"

Frankly, I think trying to pretend you can ever be invincible on the street, and telling new riders the same, is more dangerous than acceptance of the fact that you will probably go down. Giving up is not helpful, but neither is ignoring the risk.

That sentence doesn't make sense if it has the word "invisible" in it. We don't want to be "invisible" on the street, but we'd like to be "invincible".

My argument with that statement is that nobody here has said we can be invincible on the street. Anyone who thinks they are is going to be dead in a very short time.
Many of us have said that the risks are managable to the point where motorcycling can be a relatively safe activity, hence, my several riding friends who've been riding more than 30 years and never crashed, and my own experience, having not crashed since 1977.
 
The messed up part is I have seen death in all those hobbies. A few of those deaths were mentors. So when I see someone who's skills and judgement are better than mine but they die... It's hard. So I stay paranoid and do my best, so far it's been good enough. :ride paranoia and luck ftw.


Indeed.. many folks with great skill sets do pass doing many things that are not what the couch potatoes do.. risk is part of life.

and knowing that the risk is present is a big part of being prepared.

:smoking
 
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