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Religious discussion... WARNING: Not for overly sensitive religious people.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christianpiatt/2012/07/ten-cliches-christians-should-never-use/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christianpiatt/2012/07/ten-more-cliches-christians-should-avoid/

1. “Everything happens for a reason.”
2. “If you died today, do you know where you’d spend the rest of eternity?”
3. “He/she is in a better place.”
4. “Can I share a little bit about my faith with you?”
5. “You should come to church with me on Sunday.”
6. “Have you asked Jesus into your heart?
7. “Do you accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior?”
8. “This could be the end of days.”
9. “Jesus died for your sins.”
10. “Will all our visitors please stand?”
11. Love the sinner, hate the sin.
12. The Bible clearly says
13. God needed another angel in heaven, so He called him/her home.
14. Are you saved?
15. The Lord never gives someone more than they can handle.
16. America was founded as a Christian nation
17. The Bible says it; I believe it; that settles it.
18. It was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
19. Jesus was a Democrat/Republican.
20. (Insert sin here) is an abomination in the eyes of God


Also, which god should we be convinced to believe in? The god of Abraham? Jesus? Zeus? Thor? The flying spaghetti monster? If you believe in one of those, won't don't you believe in the other ones?

Also a personal fav:

no_estimates.jpg
 
jdhu said:
Not really sure your point, but as an atheist, I will bite. It WOULD take a "miracle." I would guess that most atheists believe in science, data/evidence, etc., so it would have to be some miracle that is clearly scientifically impossible (hence leaving "god" as the only explanation).

Right to judge? Again, not sure the point here, but when is it really "right" to judge anyone?

Hell...LOL...literally the least of my concerns.
Click to expand...

"Miracle" might just be a lack of knowledge that we currently have. Bring some of current technology few hundred years back and it would be considered a "miracle".
 
UDRider said:
"Miracle" might just be a lack of knowledge that we currently have. Bring some of current technology few hundred years back and it would be considered a "miracle".
Click to expand...

Right, although these days, with the tools that we do have, it's much less likely that we would just believe that something we don't understand is "god" at work.
 
jh2586 said:
Are you implying that Atheists are mentally delusional or are you just comparing the end result answer which is "you can't"?
Click to expand...

I believe Sandy is referring to the believers.

One of my co-workers told me that he won't let his grandkids watch anything that questions religion and God, or anything that questions the Jehovah's Witnesses. In my opinion, he's brainwashing them from birth. I say, give them all the information and let them choose for themselves. We also had a discussion about cults, cult behavior (not associating with anyone that isn't in their own special religion), and associating with gays and such. He stands on the side of religion, where you don't give them a choice, whether with whom to associate, what to see, what to read, what to believe, et al.

I truly think he is handicapping them in the big face of things. Just because you don't want to see things, doesn't mean they aren't there (gays, other religions, non-believers, etc.).
 
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jh2586 said:
I still find it hard to believe that God would condemn over half the world's population to eternal damnation if he is such a loving God. I haven't quite figured that one out yet lol..
Click to expand...

That's why some of the Gnostics believed that the god of this world, Yaldabaoth, was actually evil and that the creation of this universe and earth was sort of a non-sanctioned creation to the disapproval of higher beings. That way, they could still believe in deities, but explain exactly what you mention.They were thinkers, like you, and faith fell short to real world observation.

I'm all about Barbelo. (sorry, you'll have to look it up). :laughing One of the books in this site has that version, i forgot which, but link below will give you a clue about reading this stuff. If you read through a lot of it, you'll come to understand the Genesis in the Bible is the Reader's Digest version of a much more sophisticated creation myth. If you skip to the 30th or so paragraph, you'll see what I'm talkin' about.
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn.html

When i was in the hospital for a month, I had Marvin Meyer's "Gnostic Bible" and read the collected bulk of this stuff. I find it fascinating though a bit hard to follow sometimes.
 
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HappyHighwayman said:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christianpiatt/2012/07/ten-cliches-christians-should-never-use/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christianpiatt/2012/07/ten-more-cliches-christians-should-avoid/

1. “Everything happens for a reason.”
2. “If you died today, do you know where you’d spend the rest of eternity?”
3. “He/she is in a better place.”
4. “Can I share a little bit about my faith with you?”
5. “You should come to church with me on Sunday.”
6. “Have you asked Jesus into your heart?
7. “Do you accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior?”
8. “This could be the end of days.”
9. “Jesus died for your sins.”
10. “Will all our visitors please stand?”
11. Love the sinner, hate the sin.
12. The Bible clearly says
13. God needed another angel in heaven, so He called him/her home.
14. Are you saved?
15. The Lord never gives someone more than they can handle.
16. America was founded as a Christian nation
17. The Bible says it; I believe it; that settles it.
18. It was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
19. Jesus was a Democrat/Republican.
20. (Insert sin here) is an abomination in the eyes of God


Also, which god should we be convinced to believe in? The god of Abraham? Jesus? Zeus? Thor? The flying spaghetti monster? If you believe in one of those, won't don't you believe in the other ones?

Also a personal fav:

no_estimates.jpg
Click to expand...

Very interesting. Thanks for those links! :thumbup
 
Funny how these miracles:

- Usually aren't miraculous
- Upon investigation turn out to be frauds/exaggerated/explained by natural causes

And then of course, the people who disprove the miracles are blamed, like the Indian guy who disproved the weeping christ:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...christ-miracle-hoax-faces-jail_n_2201897.html

Sanal Edamaruku, Indian Rationalist, Proves 'Weeping Christ' Miracle A Hoax, Now Faces Years In Jail
Click to expand...

But of course, Christianity is all about love and forgiveness and what-not, right?
The backlash against Edamaruku's conclusions was swift and strong.
Click to expand...
 
jh2586 said:
I am on a slow path towards Atheism. After being brough up Catholic and Christian for so many years, I am trying to grasp the fallacies incorporated within any religion. Thus, trying to compare certain groups' beliefs and opinions.

I still find it hard to believe that God would condemn over half the world's population to eternal damnation if he is such a loving God. I haven't quite figured that one out yet lol..
Click to expand...

OK I see. First, both of my parents are scientists, one is atheist, one more agnostic (just providing a little background).

To me, the "coldness" or lack of corrective action that "god" exhibits isn't the best argument for non-belief. The best argument against "god" is just science, and theism's lack of ANY justification/basis (at least how a reasonable person should understand it).

Why not believe in magic, leprechauns, etc., which are all as believable as any "god?"
 
HappyHighwayman said:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Faith is not something to be admired.

Science the best method we have for learning how the universe around us works, until you can provide a better method, that's the one I'm sticking with, and there's no scientific evidence for a god to exist. In the end, religions claims are wholly unconvincing.
Click to expand...

This. Just because a person feels strongly about a belief doesn't make it right.

But, just as there is no way to prove the presence of a "divine spirit", there is also no way to prove the absence of one either.

We can estimate how large the universe is. It's naive to think that some ghost made all that.
 
jh2586 said:
Very interesting. Thanks for those links! :thumbup
Click to expand...


Just keep in mind, most religious arguments to a person of science are downright riduculous or unconvincing, as awesome as "but it says so in the <insert holy religious book> "

Also, since "respected theologians" tend to disagree on what things even mean, it's hard to believe there is even an obvious meaning to texts that have been translated several times through the generations, that were written thousands of years ago, targeted at relatively primitive tribal people.
 
Also Carl Sagan (RIP):

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"
Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle -- but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."
Click to expand...
 
Science people ? As naturally curious and open minded for new discoveries. Doesn't sound like they would automatically discount religious believes. A subject that may prove as interesting as any other phenomenon.
 
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things , that takes religion"

Quote ---Steven Weinberg
 
HappyHighwayman said:
Just keep in mind, most religious arguments to a person of science are downright riduculous or unconvincing, as awesome as "but it says so in the <insert holy religious book> "

Also, since "respected theologians" tend to disagree on what things even mean, it's hard to believe there is even an obvious meaning to texts that have been translated several times through the generations, that were written thousands of years ago, targeted at relatively primitive tribal people.
Click to expand...

I recently bumped into an old friend of mine at the Alameda County Fair this weekend. We both met at our old church in Hayward, CA. He has graduated Bible college and is now a minister in Castro Valley (I forget which church).

He asked me how is my "walk with God". I told him that I'm not sure if I even believe there is a God anymore.. He became really concerned and immediately gave me his number and wanted to talk to me. He kept saying, "Keep your faith alive! There is a God!"

I'm very reluctant to even see him and discuss, but I'd actually be sort of interested in what he has to say. This is one of the main reasons of this post.
 
Bronto said:
Science people ? As naturally curious and open minded for new discoveries. Doesn't sound like they would automatically discount religious believes. A subject that may prove as interesting as any other phenomenon.
Click to expand...

How about reading writing inside a hat that nobody else can see? Or just someone making up a bunch of shit, and taking everyone's money? All in the name of God. Someone's God, anyway.
 
Bronto said:
Science people ? As naturally curious and open minded for new discoveries. Doesn't sound like they would automatically discount religious believes. A subject that may prove as interesting as any other phenomenon.
Click to expand...

Sure, but it doesn't become a valid source of study just because someone makes a claim. Many religious claims cannot be verified. This does not give them weight.

As far as I know, no religious claim has ever panned out. There is no status anywhere where they can't figure out why it cries, or a video tape of Jesus addressing 1000 followers in the sky or confirmations that a priest actually droves demons from a "Possessed" person's body.

Give me an "interesting" religious phenomena that has actually panned out.

Also, why atheists don't need to show respect for religion:

http://www.alternet.org/story/149588/no,_atheists_don't_have_to_show_"respect"_for_religion
 
I thought that this was very interesting and well said:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

~Epicurus~

Here is the explanation http://kneedeepincode.com/topics/epicurus’s-quote-on-god/
 
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