• There has been a recent cluster of spammers accessing BARFer accounts and posting spam. To safeguard your account, please consider changing your password. It would be even better to take the additional step of enabling 2 Factor Authentication (2FA) on your BARF account. Read more here.

Results of the crash rule discussion at the AFM meeting

Holeshot

Holeshot

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
Joined
Jun 19, 2002
Location
Walnut Creek
Moto(s)
Monica Sweetheart!!!!
Name
Berto
BARF perks
Barf Racer
As all of you know, I ran on the promise of doing the most I could to defeat the 2008 crash rule, an abomination of a rule. We discussed the rule at the February meeting and tabled a decision until all INC. board members were in attendance. I put forth a motion to scrap the 2008 rule and go back to the 2007 rule, with good support from Alex. The motion failed.

The suggestion was then given, to alleviate concerns about practice not being counted as a race start, but crashes being counted in practices, to count each practice session as a race "Start". Kevin intimated he'd be for this idea, so the motion was put forth to count each practice session timed (even one lap) as a race "start", and added to the total. The motion passed unanimously.

This means a few things: We've made a compromise rule that is no better than the 2007 rule, only it has more proclivaties and is harder to understand. The rule is NOW looser than it was when originally made, with the addition of counting practice. Riders MUST have a working transponder on their bike and have a timed lap for this to work.

So, sorry guys, I wasn't able to get the crash rule reverted to last season's rule with Alex's help, but with the help of Kevin, Ken, Dave, and Don, we were able to come up with a rule that somewhat alleviates the pain.

And before anyone chimes in: I hate the 2008 rule and see how we can live with the change in the rule for the 2008 season, to be addressed at the next rules meeting in 2008. I hope that works for this season. We'll keep plugging away at it...thanks for the support.
 
The perspective that Kevin puts out there is that although any racer who crashes 3 times will be assessed the penalty of sitting out the next race, the racer may (and is seemingly encouraged) to protest the penalty which will delay the penalty and give the board the chance to (likely) waive the penalty.

The objective seems to be to get crashers in front of the board to explain why they are crashing and lacking a better way to do it, this is what kevin came up with and was agreed to.

Adding practices to the start numbers means that any racer that runs the practices and 2 races gets 7 start credits per weekend (4 saturday practice, 1 sunday practice, 2 races) which means by race 3, most will be in the 20+ category. At that point, crash 4 is again a 1 race suspense.

In all cases, 5 crashes is a season suspense. but like all penalties, is appealable.

If you crash, get your witness statements, try to get it removed at the track so it never gets counted (see a rider rep), write your explanation and do your drawings because you might need the info months later at your penalty appeal.
 
And if you have plenty of cash and a 600 and a 1000 you could enter 8 races on a weekend, 10 if your 40 and fast enough for FP, do two laps, one has to show up on timing sheets, and pull off getting all your starts taken care of in one day. That and one well timed appeal could get you though the whole season. So for a little more than the cost of a set of tires you can pretty much defeat the crash rule. :teeth
 
Actually, I guess it is easier, cheaper than that, Practice on 3 bikes, that's 15 starts right there, then you only need to run 5 races. :) uh... All without crashing twice.

But there is no defeating this rule - 3rd crash, suspension/appeal in all cases (15 or more starts) - 4th crash, suspension/appeal, - 5th crash season suspension/appeal.

The difference is really what you are appealing; a race-day suspension or a season suspension on the 4th crash.
 
Thanks Berto & Alex for trying to fix at least one area of the rulebook that didn't make sense.
 
Last edited:
We'll keep trying guys. At the next rules meeting we'll need ALL of your support and attendance. This rule is ridiculous and we all know that. We might even have Paddy on our side now...she gets to account for all these crashes!
 
As well pointed out, dangerous riders get spotted and reported. Don't need a rule to find them. While good riders do crash.
 
Thanks for at least getting it modified to make it more reasonable.

Now I wish I had voted for you :p
 
Berto, now that you've nearly met or exceeded your campaign promise, what are you going to do for the rest of the year on the board?! You should be a little more bureaucratic in your time lines for change. At this pace you'll burn yourself out!
 
Holeshot said:
We might even have Paddy on our side now...she gets to account for all these crashes!
Click to expand...

It's not the accounting for the crashes, it is the accounting for every single practice session that will drive her insane. Think about it, roughly 400 riders per weekend who enter about 5 practice session (including Sunday morning) means she has just increased the amount of data that requires tracking by over 2,000 per weekend and 16,000 per season. Talk about a pointless, labor intensive exercise. A lot of extra work, ZERO return to the club... just crazy. :rolleyes
 
My take on the meeting was the Board didn't have any triggers in place to actually work with the 2007 rule. So instead of modifying the process to make the rule work, a new rule was created (that has already been changed) and it's now on the way towards getting too complicated to work properly...How many versions of the crash rule has the club had over the last 5 years? It's changed so many times that there isn't really a good comparison for year to year data.

Thanks for your efforts Berto and Alex.

Tom
36
 
The irony is that in the end, the crash appeal process is still very subjective, so even spending this crazy amount of time and effort in order to invent this "perfect equation" (aka crash rule) and give the appearance of "objectivity", there is still no way to get away from being "subjective".

The concept of a crash rule is basically to suspend you FIRST and then give you an opportunity to appeal and explain to the board why you shouldn't be suspended, so the approach is to basically shoot first, ask questions later... :rolleyes NOBODY else has an "equation" for an automatic suspension because the concept itself is absurd. EVERYBODY else just leaves it up to the race officials to identify and discipline "problem racers" without dragging everybody else through a crazy, convoluted process.
 
Ok I am officially retared cuz I do not understand the rule at all... i tired maybe cuz it is late but I do NOT get it at all... I get if your a bone head they will see you and racers will complain and you may crash so you get dinged if you do bad... I am all for it.. What happens if someone just has 3 bad weekends and crashes one time by them selves and then get's there clocks clean out by two other racers and it was not the 1sy guy who has one ding and he get in trouble cuz it is his or her word against his or her word.. ect etc... Tell Bertalex... You guys love that? It is Berto and Alex working as one single unit... BERTALEX!! Ha do not worry about laughing I did for all of us...
 
Craig, Alex and I HATE the current rule. Our aim was to give more "credit" for not crashing in the practices...in effect loosening the current rule as much as we could, with the support we had. I put forth a motion to go back to the 2007 rule, but it failed. So this was the compromise, which still sucks ass.

In the rulebook it lays the table our for how many crashes you can have for how many race starts. Consider practice sessions, each one, a race start.

If someone takes you out, doument and get statements. When it comes to a trip to the board, bring your stuff and appeal the suspension. In fact, many of the board members would have been in the same position for various previous seasons, myself included.
 
Thanks Berto!!

Ok I get it I think... The reason I was thinking on it is... at that final AFM Infineon there was some toolshed on a Kawi dive bombing all the corners trying to race mx with me and the others in the pack... :)

He was green streak who was outta line and outta control. I was soo worried I would have a crash on my record at least 2 laps of the six of 600 SB... it would not be my fault, but I was worried. :)

Ok enough of that so the more practices and starts the better "IF" you did have a crash? Good times....

I think it is cool there is something for if your a jackass and take people out... I guess if anything ever happens to me I hope people see me being the good guy...

So like wtf did you like BERTALEX bit or what?

Ok 2nd question... Easter egg hunt or racing? :) If I do not see you at bw for sure Infineon.... -Craig
 
Maybe the compromise that will get kevin's vote would be to just have a hearing at the board after 3 crashes and then again after 4 crashes where the board chooses to suspend or not. I dunno.

As far as the scenario where someone takes you out, those should be removed trackside with the help of the rider rep and race director. crashes are only supposed to be the ones that are your fault, but you have to appeal them the day of the crash.

The rule sucks, but last year, the board didn't suspend the riders it probably should have because there were no fixed points where they had to make a decision. I'll bet they don't suspend anyone this year either. Last year's rule sucked because it was different for novices and the board didn't even know what the rule was and T&S didn't pay attention to the "remove after 6 starts" part of the rule.

More data for paddy? maybe we should leave it up to the rider to produce the printouts from MyAFM to show how many "starts" they've had. give paddy a break. it's really easy... anytime you log in under your id, you can see how many sessions you've done at a track.

we could probably even ask chris to add a counter to the bottom of the total headings with the number of sessions.

even better, a crash stats page where it just lists the pertinent info from the season. the only thing paddy would have to do is report to chris which session each crash was in.
 
Well Eric, for next season I'm for no rule for experts and a tight rule for novices.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top