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Right To Repair Restrictions Outta Control - John Deere

mrzuzzo said:
With Ducati the light comes on before an oil change and there is no way to reset it other than connecting it to some sort of diagnostic system. :thumbdown
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Yes I have my Multistrada oil light on now. Will have it on until time for the valve adjustment. Wish some hacker would do a phone or laptop app to reset it. :thumbdown
 
russ69 said:
Kinda off topic but I'll put this out there anyway. I asked my local Ducati dealer how he might service the electronic software bikes when the computers and programs become obsolete in 20 years. He said they probably won't be able to service them. Maybe I need to start a carb conversion business? A carb is stupid enough it doesn't need a computer to put fuel in the engine.
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... or someone will develop a $39 gizmo to fix/override/replace it. :dunno
 
aminalmutha said:
You mean spark ignition tractors? Have fun with that. :laughing

Yes, there is a market, it's called antique collectors.

Most of these things aren't really seen as vehicles, they are a capital investment. I totally get why there are hacks to do your own thing with them, but I can't bring myself to get butthurt about John Deere locking people out of their proprietary software.
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but thats not the whole issue.

"If a farmer bought the tractor, he should be able to do whatever he wants with it," Kevin Kenney, a farmer and right-to-repair advocate in Nebraska, told me. "You want to replace a transmission and you take it to an independent mechanic—he can put in the new transmission but the tractor can't drive out of the shop. Deere charges $230, plus $130 an hour for a technician to drive out and plug a connector into their USB port to authorize the part."
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the owner isnt trying to alter the software nor steal anything proprietary. they are just trying to have whoever they want fix their tractor with whatever parts they want. but JD isnt allowing it. they want their cut.

just imagine replacing the brakes in your car yourself, but still having to take it to the dealer to have them authorize the part in their software. what a load of crap.
 
Johndicezx9 said:
... or someone will develop a $39 gizmo to fix/override/replace it. :dunno
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For $29 I'll send you a roll of black electrical tape. Takes care of any unwanted lights.

stangmx13 said:
but thats not the whole issue.



the owner isnt trying to alter the software nor steal anything proprietary. they are just trying to have whoever they want fix their tractor with whatever parts they want. but JD isnt allowing it. they want their cut.

just imagine replacing the brakes in your car yourself, but still having to take it to the dealer to have them authorize the part in their software. what a load of crap.
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It's....more complicated than that.

Deere makes a tractor and sells it in about 3 different HP ratings with no hardware changes. Each bump in HP is about $20,000 more. So farmers are buying the low HP tractor and having them chipped into the high HP. As the HP goes up, the warranty costs go up. Part of that $20k goes to the warranty department to cover expected losses in warranty claims.

It isn't locking someone out of the computer so much as it is keeping someone from putting the high HP tune into a tractor that they didn't pay for. And you are not going to get the warranty that you didn't pay for.

There is also some possible emissions compliance stuff at play here as well. If the jump in HP changes the emissions class, and Deere has to sell so many cleaner ones in order to sell some of the higher HP ones. This could be putting them in violation. A way of protecting themselves.
 
Fine. Put a sticker on the computer that says "any modifications void your warranty"

Remotely bricking a product because somebody did something without mfr. permission is fucking bullshit. :thumbdown
 
I ain't sayin' it's right.

Those JD bastards wouldn't warranty my tractors.

16427382_10154117132657077_2621873703416496597_n.jpg
 
aminalmutha said:
There is more to it than simply converting to a carb... EFI has been pretty much standard on all road going cars since about 1987. Had a friend who had a car with EFI from the early 70's. Have all the cars since 1997 been taken off the road?...
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The problem with newer bikes is that the programmers are interlinking systems together. My buddy just got stranded on his new KTM because some programmer thought it was a good idea to have the bike not run after a set time period without the dealer putting in the delivery code, which he forgot to do. Computers are getting too smart for their own britches. Cars are a different issue, there are way more cars so solutions are practical but nobody is writing an interface for a Beta or other low volume machine.
 
stangmx13 said:
just imagine replacing the brakes in your car yourself, but still having to take it to the dealer to have them authorize the part in their software. what a load of crap.
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You can't think of a tractor as you would a car. Think of it as a specialized piece of capital equipment used make a business money. THAT is what it really is. The entire business model and end use it completely different from automotive.

This is more of a used-market issue, which seems to have already been resolved.
 
MrIncredible said:
For $29 I'll send you a roll of black electrical tape. Takes care of any unwanted lights.



It's....more complicated than that.

Deere makes a tractor and sells it in about 3 different HP ratings with no hardware changes. Each bump in HP is about $20,000 more. So farmers are buying the low HP tractor and having them chipped into the high HP. As the HP goes up, the warranty costs go up. Part of that $20k goes to the warranty department to cover expected losses in warranty claims.

It isn't locking someone out of the computer so much as it is keeping someone from putting the high HP tune into a tractor that they didn't pay for. And you are not going to get the warranty that you didn't pay for.

There is also some possible emissions compliance stuff at play here as well. If the jump in HP changes the emissions class, and Deere has to sell so many cleaner ones in order to sell some of the higher HP ones. This could be putting them in violation. A way of protecting themselves.
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The options on these things are mind boggling. The applications are vast and in many cases, the sales volumes for large engine and/or equipment mfgs for certain applications can be very, very, very low. As in dozens or less, per year.

Also, these things are in the six to seven digit range and are far, far more complex than any car.

People are thinking in terms of cars and garden tractors. That's not the case at all. Apples and tomatos.
 
If you have to PAY for new tech, Pay for updates, and PAY for repairs, and yet basically only renting.

You should be able to sue for downtime, unearned wages(downtime), crop loss, bank interest, land leased, water used, seed, soil enhancements, mental torment (worry) and loss of face ( the JD logo tatted to your A$$).
 
you CAN view this as a car

what ppl are mad and ranting and raving is

you MUST bring the tractor to a JD service center which is not very local to some of those rural farmers. If you read the article it stated they would rather take it to their local diesel shop to fix it.

this is like, you bought a new car, a tire pressure system module is broken - yes its under warranty, but your dealership is 5+ hours round trip away from you, so you take it to the local tire shop, he puts in new sensors for a 1/4 of the price and then cant get them to program/sync with your vehicle due to some JD proprietary software.

The fix, upload a cracked ecu image so you can sync the new sensors without having the JD software interface to it.

What people are mad is they have been using JD tractors for ages, yes they break down but they never had to wait for a dealer tech to come out from who knows where to
plug in, they could just fix it and get it back on the farm asap.

What is worst is the disclaimer they forced the JD owners to sign is they cannot sue for loss of crops/wages from machinery downtime.

So in other words they could fix the problem before quickly and locally, now its a absolutely required dealer visit which takes alot more time and potential loss of crops/wages from the downtime
 
MrIncredible said:
It's....more complicated than that.

Deere makes a tractor and sells it in about 3 different HP ratings with no hardware changes. Each bump in HP is about $20,000 more. So farmers are buying the low HP tractor and having them chipped into the high HP. As the HP goes up, the warranty costs go up. Part of that $20k goes to the warranty department to cover expected losses in warranty claims.

It isn't locking someone out of the computer so much as it is keeping someone from putting the high HP tune into a tractor that they didn't pay for. And you are not going to get the warranty that you didn't pay for.

There is also some possible emissions compliance stuff at play here as well. If the jump in HP changes the emissions class, and Deere has to sell so many cleaner ones in order to sell some of the higher HP ones. This could be putting them in violation. A way of protecting themselves.
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so JD's solution that allowed them to sell 3 diff models with only software changes is fucking everything else up too? i can understand the HP/warranty stuff, it seems reasonable. but i fail to see why that requires the convoluted system that bricks the hardware until a new part is approved. sounds like JD was just fucking lazy as hell and trying to make more $$ from service calls.

doesnt the automotive sector already handle this warranty stuff appropriately? replacing a part doesnt void your entire warranty, only the warranty on the subsystem that u messed with? auto manufacturers dont need DMCA software to handle that.
 
FXCLM5 said:
you CAN view this as a car

what ppl are mad and ranting and raving is

you MUST bring the tractor to a JD service center which is not very local to some of those rural farmers. If you read the article it stated they would rather take it to their local diesel shop to fix it.

this is like, you bought a new car, a tire pressure system module is broken - yes its under warranty, but your dealership is 5+ hours round trip away from you, so you take it to the local tire shop, he puts in new sensors for a 1/4 of the price and then cant get them to program/sync with your vehicle due to some JD proprietary software.

The fix, upload a cracked ecu image so you can sync the new sensors without having the JD software interface to it.

What people are mad is they have been using JD tractors for ages, yes they break down but they never had to wait for a dealer tech to come out from who knows where to
plug in, they could just fix it and get it back on the farm asap.

What is worst is the disclaimer they forced the JD owners to sign is they cannot sue for loss of crops/wages from machinery downtime.

So in other words they could fix the problem before quickly and locally, now its a absolutely required dealer visit which takes alot more time and potential loss of crops/wages from the downtime
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Sigh...

What the article says to me is that the people who are bitching are single-implement owners with likely relatively small tractors. There are a lot of Deere (and other mfg's) equipment you can't simply "take to the dealer" very easily. You need a TT, huge lowboy trailer, etc. A lot of service is performed by mobile service techs who go out to the tractor in the field. It is far, far easier to do that than to bring the tractor in, in many, many cases.

Really, you expect Deere to warranty work done by a non-certified tech on a $500,000 piece of heavy equipment? You expect them to warranty aftermarket junk replacement parts?

They're not cars. They're similar to cars only in that they are mobile. Any car that saw anywhere remotely close to the use that heavy equipment gets would last about 10 minutes. They are complex capital equipment and Deere (or whoever makes the equipment... I bet others do this as well, just Deere is most well known in the US) takes on a huge responsibility warrantying their complex machinery that often gets neglected and abused far beyond what any car will ever see.
 
stangmx13 said:
so JD's solution that allowed them to sell 3 diff models with only software changes is fucking everything else up too? i can understand the HP/warranty stuff, it seems reasonable. but i fail to see why that requires the convoluted system that bricks the hardware until a new part is approved. sounds like JD was just fucking lazy as hell and trying to make more $$ from service calls.

doesnt the automotive sector already handle this warranty stuff appropriately? replacing a part doesnt void your entire warranty, only the warranty on the subsystem that u messed with? auto manufacturers dont need DMCA software to handle that.
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Hey I was just pointing out that it's not as simple as some seem to think. You don't like it? Don't buy one.
 
Another thing to note... while John Deere is a large company, it is nowhere close to as large as most major auto manufacturers and is not part of some conglomerate like some other offshore tractor manufacturers. Nor is it as large as CAT. Or Apple or any numerous other companies it's being compared to. You gotta protect your lunch else someone else eats it.
 
aminalmutha said:
Sigh...

What the article says to me is that the people who are bitching are single-implement owners with likely relatively small tractors. There are a lot of Deere (and other mfg's) equipment you can't simply "take to the dealer" very easily. You need a TT, huge lowboy trailer, etc. A lot of service is performed by mobile service techs who go out to the tractor in the field. It is far, far easier to do that than to bring the tractor in, in many, many cases.

Really, you expect Deere to warranty work done by a non-certified tech on a $500,000 piece of heavy equipment? You expect them to warranty aftermarket junk replacement parts?

They're not cars. They're similar to cars only in that they are mobile. Any car that saw anywhere remotely close to the use that heavy equipment gets would last about 10 minutes. They are complex capital equipment and Deere (or whoever makes the equipment... I bet others do this as well, just Deere is most well known in the US) takes on a huge responsibility warrantying their complex machinery that often gets neglected and abused far beyond what any car will ever see.
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lol you sound like you work for a oem mfg and have never heard of mom and pops repair shops

I'm not sure why you cant comprehend that the object of tractors or cars does not matter, lets view them as fancy cars with big wheels on the back and small wheels on the front with multiple ptos.

I can view them as toasters just to level with you, simply put they are a object you have bought that you should be able to use in any way form fashion you want, and if you dont service it in a way - it should just void the warranty - NOT make the object inoperable due to it not able to sync up.

You do realize this has already started in moto industry, for fucks sake, aprilia has already done it, with a flashed ecu you have to have dealer probe hookups to resync the throttle in order to use it.

guess what ppl have created? a cracked free version of guzzzzidiag which you can download off the forum, buy some t&m leads, usb cable and boom you dont have to go to the dealer anymore.

And yes i expect john deere to pull the warranty if the tractor is under warranty and the owner chooses to fix it in @ non dealer/authorized network way.

Not make the tractor become a 20ton diesel gas tank.

I think you should read the article again, your missing the main point :party
 
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