The problem is not religion (or racism for that matter). It's tribalism.

[latindane]

I followed Jordan Peterson's (a clinical psychologist and professor) issue re: non-gendered pronouns and free speech (unrelated issue), so I stumbled upon his "New Year’s Letter to the World". He makes a statement that I find very interesting, and reminds me of many discussions on religion/atheism here in the KS:

The central problem of human beings isn’t religion, as the New Atheists insist. It’s tribalism.

This claim is consistent with the results of some recent research at the UCSB Center for Evolutionary Psychology that I found very interesting; that racial categorization significantly decreases in the presence of alternative coalitional clues, but categorization by sex and age do not...

Differences in political opinions: an occasion for calm reflection or a signal that people belong to rival gangs? A new study shows that political opinions engage an evolved system that tracks who is allied with whom, categorizing people by their coalitional alliances. When race does not predict political alliances, this alliance detection system categorizes people as members of rival political parties and starts to ignore race. What's more, racial categorization decreases, but categorization by sex and age do not. This is what you would expect if the mind treats race as an alliance cue...and nothing more. See Constituents of Political Cognition, by David Pietraszewski, Oliver Curry, Michael Bang Petersen, John Tooby, and Leda Cosmides. Click here for the press release and here to read the article.

The motivation for that research was very cool: during our evolutionary-relevant past, meeting a person of a different race was ridiculously unlikely, so it makes no sense for our brain to evolve a specific "race" identifier. Cool stuff.

 

[bruceflinch]

Don't judge my Tribe, Bro

 

[Corb]

To me it is a weird distinction. Because religion (the way I understand it) is a very strong form of tribalism. In fact if you are going to separate humanity in its biggest biggest, most distinctive tribes, you would use religion.
My understanding of this could be wrong. Needless to say I've been looking forward to a Sam Harris/Jordan Peterson discussion very much. This will be a treat to me because I hold both of those big brains in much respect.
Really can't wait for that podcast.

 

[planegray]

I like where Peterson is exploring.

To me, much of the "hate" is actually fear... and it seems to be a basic animal response.....animals don't give a shit what you look like, but have no mercy when protecting their "kind's" resources

 

[Climber]

To me it is a weird distinction. Because religion (the way I understand it) is a very strong form of tribalism. In fact if you are going to separate humanity in its biggest biggest, most distinctive tribes, you would use religion.
My understanding of this could be wrong. Needless to say I've been looking forward to a Sam Harris/Jordan Peterson discussion very much. This will be a treat to me because I hold both of those big brains in much respect.
Really can't wait for that podcast.

I think that he ended up with tribalism to cover cases where religion isn't the binding factor, but that also covers the case where it is an entirely homogeneous religious group as well.

 

[augustiron]

Religion, nationalism, all the way down to fervent sports team fanaticism, all forms of tribalism. All equally ugly IMHO.

 

[byke]

To me it is a weird distinction. Because religion (the way I understand it) is a very strong form of tribalism. In fact if you are going to separate humanity in its biggest biggest, most distinctive tribes, you would use religion.
My understanding of this could be wrong.

You're right, but it doesn't conflict with the premise of the article. It agrees. You're saying the same thing.

 

[Bay Arean]

I continue to point out that classic racism is very rare ( Englightenment-era notions of superiority of caucasians). Tribalism endures or replaces. And the economic divide is likely to supply a new paradigm of it: the wealthier types tribin' up against the custodial society types.

As I live in the DLZ (Designated Loser Zone, a term I coined and you may use) of Richmond area, but commute to the wealth zone of Walnut Creek, I continue to see a growing difference in appearance and attitude between respective populations, no matter the melanin.

 

[Corb]

You're right, but it doesn't conflict with the premise of the article. It agrees. You're saying the same thing.

Yea I think my disagreement was with that one JP quote.
I'm quite familiar with the writings of all 4 of the so called "new atheists" and they all agree that tribalism and ideology are the issue.
Is just that religion, and some versions of it more than others are perfect examples of the worst ideology and tribalism put together.
Sam Harris and Hitchens often talked about secular ideologies [like communism] who are just as bad as the worst religion has to offer.
The cure for both is rationality, freedom, ethics based on minimizing human suffering.

 

[byke]

Ideology is a component of tribalism, as opposed to being the inverse, or peers. But, if we're taking it down to the lowest level, pretty much everything boils down to fear.

 

[augustiron]

I don't think it is fear as much as a desire to be superior by being "right". It is not fear of other's ideas or beliefs as much as it is that an individual's personal ideas are better and right and others are wrong and inferior. And thus other ideas must be: changed, destroyed, made fun of, etc.
See: Internet forums.

 

[Climber]

The easiest way to unite a group and control it is to manufacture an external bogeyman for the group to hate.

 

[byke]

I still think just about everything boils down to fear at the very end of the chain. Fear of being forced to live a different lifestyle. It's the same for either side. The right is afraid the left will create a world which where abortions and weed are commonplace and will ruin their children and their own lives. The left is afraid the right will create a world where atheists and homosexuals are demonized and who knows where that ends. It's the same with religion, that an opposing religion will become dominant they fear the ideas they disagree with being forced on themselves and/or their families. There's an awesome book on the subject, not to imply that the existence of a book is evidence of anything. The first quote here is especially poignant.

 

[carries an axe]

I don't think it is fear as much as a desire to be superior by being "right". It is not fear of other's ideas or beliefs as much as it is that an individual's personal ideas are better and right and others are wrong and inferior. And thus other ideas must be: changed, destroyed, made fun of, etc.
See: Internet forums.

True, but on some level is self-improvement not the goal and to the benefit of a society? Civilization is an experiment and one could argue that a culture or tribe has benefits or superiority over another based on the quality of life of its members

 

[enki]

Cliff's Note version:

People are fucked up

 

[redruM]

Tribalism is the key element of social engineering.

[youtube]1HsncQAysBs[/youtube]

 

[Eldritch]

Religion, nationalism, all the way down to fervent sports team fanaticism, all forms of tribalism. All equally ugly IMHO.

LOL, indeed, Also it is an inescapable aspect of our species. A evolutionarily designed aspect of homo sapiens sapiens that will never be truly absent. The best thing to do is attempt to secure and develop the most dominant and effective tribe possible (Americans ).

 

[teg916]

I don't think that we can blame tribalism as an evil force, any more than we can blame religion as an evil force, any more than we can name any race as an evil force. Certainly a lot of wrong doing has been perpetrated because of tribalism, but so has mostly everything that is good that we know of. Western civilization would not be possible without tribalism, as we could not build a government to regulate modern society without coming together to do it. Cities would not be possible without tribalism. People helping other people in need would be nearly non existent without tribalism. Tribalism is human nature. Trying to change that would be like trying to keep birds from traveling in flocks, or to keep fish from swimming in schools.

Jordan Peterson is an intelligent man, and I am interested to hear what he means when he says the central problem of human beings is tribalism.

 

[Karbon]

Biology and evolution made us into organisms which are extremely good at pattern recognition, we're compelled to seek it. Tribalism is the cultural and social manifestation of that evolutionary trait.

Go figure.

 

[Eldritch]

Biology and evolution made us into organisms which are extremely good at pattern recognition, we're compelled to seek it. Tribalism is the cultural and social manifestation of that evolutionary trait.

Go figure.

Likewise, xenophobia is a genetically imprinted survival trait.