Turning in at speed

[S1KGSXR600]

So, at higher speeds, and handling corners with a pretty short transition time (e.g left, right, left, right) What do you do to turn in smoothly and yet maintain speed?

In my experience, I tend to smoothly roll off the throttle, trail brake if needed, and turn in. then I get on maintenance throttle and use throttle steering throughout the turn + body position and all that.

But I feel like at higher speeds the timespan to make those transitions shrinks (obviously) to the point where to maintain my speed, I feel like I also have to maintain my throttle. I notice I keep getting left behind in the twisties because of my roll off. People somehow seem to maintain a higher entry speed than I am.

I can't figure out how - so my question is, what do you do prior to turning in? Do you roll off the throttle so that its closed, do you roll off slightly and turn in and get back on? Or do you just maintain a constant throttle and countersteer? Do you roll off at your braking point, or late in the corner?

I'm afraid to have it on the throttle while I turn in at high speed. I feel like I'm giving my tire too many points at a time. Am I right? Or can I maintain and constant throttle and use countersteer to alter my lines?

Hope this makes sense

 

[afm199]

There are corners I roll of entirely and brake (T14 at Thill), there are corners I roll off a bit for T5 at Sears Point. Every corner is different, but the shorter the transition, the work it is, because you have less time to deal with the forces.

In short, rather than try something new, try something less. Brake a bit later, roll on bit earlier, or brake a bit less. ONLY one thing and only a small amount.

There's no point in trying to analyze your style, not enough info. You can certainly stay on the throttle and countersteer/weight pegs. Braking at every corner is only slowing you down.

 

[tzrider]

I notice I keep getting left behind in the twisties because of my roll off. People somehow seem to maintain a higher entry speed than I am.

It's possible that having too low an entry speed isn't a consequence of rolling off but rather of where you're rolling off in relation to the turn entry. There can be a lot of variables, but to get entry speed right, the rider must be able to accurately judge it. This may sound too obvious to bother saying, but most riders struggle with this to some degree.

Here are some considerations about throttle use while steering. With the throttle rolling on a motorcycle is more stable. A stable motorcycle tends to resist lean angle changes and is physically harder to steer. Thus, the bike will require more steering effort on the gas than off.

Acceleration uses some available traction. Adding lean angle (entering a turn) also consumes some traction. Doing both at the same time increases the rate at which the traction demand rises. As long as the total demand doesn't exceed what is available it's not a problem. If demand does exceed available grip, it will tend to be more sudden and harder to catch if the rider is rolling on while adding lean angle than if he's doing just one of those things. Lots of highsides are preceded by rolling-on while adding lean angle.

At higher speed it takes more roll-on to stabilize the bike than at lower speeds. The stability comes from the slight rearward weight transfer, torque on the driveline and resulting geometry changes. It takes a certain amount of acceleration to make that occur. Let's arbitrarily say that amount of acceleration is .08 G. You have to turn the throttle more at 100 mph to get that .08 G than you do at 20 mph.

The above are considerations that you can apply to any given turn to different degrees. On some bikes at Sonoma, turn 8 & 8a, you can accelerate hard enough out of 7 that you need to slow a little for the entry to 8, so rolling off would be necessary anyway just to get the entry speed right. Other bikes won't get going fast enough that you will use all available lean angle in turn 8. That may be a case where you can safely stay on the gas and you would suffer a loss of speed if you didn't.

As you approach 8a, it might be helpful to dip the throttle a little just before you steer and get back on it as the bike lean angle is set. This is a fast enough turn that just pausing the roll-on may be enough to let you steer relatively easily without losing too much speed. Remember, you have to roll the throttle more to get that .08 G in this turn than you do in turn 2.

I generally try to approach turns with enough speed that I can at least stop rolling on when steering. It isn't always possible, as sometimes you're riding a series of turns where each is faster than the one before. That's a case where you want to keep as much acceleration as conditions will let you get away with.

 

[EastBayDave]

It's possible that having too low an entry speed isn't a consequence of rolling off but rather of where you're rolling off in relation to the turn entry. There can be a lot of variables, but to get entry speed right, the rider must be able to accurately judge it. This may sound too obvious to bother saying, but most riders struggle with this to some degree.

Here are some considerations about throttle use while steering. With the throttle rolling on a motorcycle is more stable. A stable motorcycle tends to resist lean angle changes and is physically harder to steer. Thus, the bike will require more steering effort on the gas than off.

Acceleration uses some available traction. Adding lean angle (entering a turn) also consumes some traction. Doing both at the same time increases the rate at which the traction demand rises. As long as the total demand doesn't exceed what is available it's not a problem. If demand does exceed available grip, it will tend to be more sudden and harder to catch if the rider is rolling on while adding lean angle than if he's doing just one of those things. Lots of highsides are preceded by rolling-on while adding lean angle.

At higher speed it takes more roll-on to stabilize the bike than at lower speeds. The stability comes from the slight rearward weight transfer, torque on the driveline and resulting geometry changes. It takes a certain amount of acceleration to make that occur. Let's arbitrarily say that amount of acceleration is .08 G. You have to turn the throttle more at 100 mph to get that .08 G than you do at 20 mph.

The above are considerations that you can apply to any given turn to different degrees. On some bikes at Sonoma, turn 8 & 8a, you can accelerate hard enough out of 7 that you need to slow a little for the entry to 8, so rolling off would be necessary anyway just to get the entry speed right. Other bikes won't get going fast enough that you will use all available lean angle in turn 8. That may be a case where you can safely stay on the gas and you would suffer a loss of speed if you didn't.

As you approach 8a, it might be helpful to dip the throttle a little just before you steer and get back on it as the bike lean angle is set. This is a fast enough turn that just pausing the roll-on may be enough to let you steer relatively easily without losing too much speed. Remember, you have to roll the throttle more to get that .08 G in this turn than you do in turn 2.

I generally try to approach turns with enough speed that I can at least stop rolling on when steering. It isn't always possible, as sometimes you're riding a series of turns where each is faster than the one before. That's a case where you want to keep as much acceleration as conditions will let you get away with.

^^^ THIS ^^^

 

[louemc]

There are corners I roll of entirely and brake (T14 at Thill), there are corners I roll off a bit for T5 at Sears Point. Every corner is different, but the shorter the transition, the work it is, because you have less time to deal with the forces.

In short, rather than try something new, try something less. Brake a bit later, roll on bit earlier, or brake a bit less. ONLY one thing and only a small amount.

There's no point in trying to analyze your style, not enough info. You can certainly stay on the throttle and countersteer/weight pegs. Braking at every corner is only slowing you down.

God I Love Ernie....

 

[latindane]

There can be a lot of variables, but to get entry speed right, the rider must be able to accurately judge it. This may sound too obvious to bother saying, but most riders struggle with this to some degree.

Keith Code makes a big deal out of this with good reason. On the track, reference points are helpful to judge entry speed. On public roads, other than "seat time" and maybe the vanishing point, how do you work on getting better at judging entry speed?

 

[MX500]

I try to gently trail brake/engine brake if needed just prior to the apex ride a gear or two high to make the bike smoother, therefore I can use more throttle and have very consistent power delivery and avoid peak horsepower so I maintain traction and have greater room for error. This is when I find myself going my fastest at the apex...

I try to add one or two mph on each run, adjusting one variable at a time body position, line selection, lean angle, the finally run at a lower gear to increase my exit acceleration.

I'm just a dirt to street convert with a conservative semi skilled riding style.

This method of slowly making progress has been good to me so far. I also ride a 1200, so the wide torque curve is very helpful when running around at 3500-6000rpm.

 

[S1KGSXR600]

Whats your throttle position like when you hit extreme lean angles? The same obviously, right?

Is it safe to go to such deep leans with the throttle off? What about maintenance or steady throttle? How much is too much, where is the limit?

If I come up on a left hander, but I don't want to brake for it, because I know a knee-dragging lean angle will take it at speed, and I just get off the throttle, turn it in hard, and then get back on the gas after my lean angle is set, will anything go wrong, assuming perfect conditions?

 

[S1KGSXR600]

When racers flick the bikes all the way to their knees, is it a smooth movement? Hows the throttle when they do that, such an abrupt motion surely makes them do a roll off?

When you lean that low, that fast, and your knee hits the ground, is it possible to lean it too hard and tripod the bike up?

What about accidentally moving your knee in or having it in the wrong position -- would this lead to exceeding the lean limit of your tires?

Just questions I can't find the answer to anywhere else. And I'm trying not to find them out myself.

 

[stangmx13]

Whats your throttle position like when you hit extreme lean angles? The same obviously, right?

Is it safe to go to such deep leans with the throttle off? What about maintenance or steady throttle? How much is too much, where is the limit?

ive had my knee on the ground at 0-100% throttle. 0% is that last second of trail braking when you are gently releasing the brakes, right before getting back to the gas. 100% is a corner like T2 at Fontana where you are transitioning out of T1 in 4th gear and need to get moving before braking for T3.

obviously, that limit is very corner and bike specific. 0% will probably happen a lot if you get good at trail braking. 100% may never happen, esp if you are on a literbike. dont forget that maintenance throttle requires more throttle the faster u go. in 4th gear @ 12k rpm on 600, u prob need >50% throttle just to maintain speed through a turn.

If I come up on a left hander, but I don't want to brake for it, because I know a knee-dragging lean angle will take it at speed, and I just get off the throttle, turn it in hard, and then get back on the gas after my lean angle is set, will anything go wrong, assuming perfect conditions?

no, nothing bad will happen, probably.

why bother getting off the gas if u can take the turn at your current speed? the second u come off the throttle, u are decelerating and the bike likely wont turn any better that way. so theres no point in rolling off.

if u need to slow for a corner, use the brakes. rolling off or coasting to kill speed is just wasted time and its less controlled. you have much greater control over loading of the front tire by using the front brakes.

When racers flick the bikes all the way to their knees, is it a smooth movement? Hows the throttle when they do that, such an abrupt motion surely makes them do a roll off?

adding or subtracting lean angle should never be an abrupt motion. never. all inputs when riding should be smooth. smoothing coming into them, and smooth coming out of them. again, the throttle input is corner specific. if theres no reason to roll off, u shouldnt.

When you lean that low, that fast, and your knee hits the ground, is it possible to lean it too hard and tripod the bike up?

What about accidentally moving your knee in or having it in the wrong position -- would this lead to exceeding the lean limit of your tires?

Just questions I can't find the answer to anywhere else. And I'm trying not to find them out myself.

"lean too hard" isnt really a valid phrase. yes, u can make such a strong bar input that ull cause it to exceed its max lean angle. but your body leaning isnt really contributing to the bikes lean angle. you arent going to pull the bike down. hanging off is supposed to decrease the effective lean angle of the motorcycle to aid in traction.

your leg likely isnt strong enough to lift the bike off the ground. but remember, knee pucks are a lean-angle gauge. nothing more. u should never be supporting any weight on them. (unless you are crashing, then feel free to try to pick the bike back up w/ your knee)

the mass of your leg is not sufficient enough to make a significant change to the actual lean angle of the rider/moto combo. so no, pulling your knee in when cornering isnt going to do anything. some racers touch their knee down, then pull it in for the rest of the corner.