V4 engines - "Cycle World" speaks

[firstbuell]

Has Honda done what Ducati couldn’t in MotoGP?

http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/08/0...egree-v-four-engine-motogp-racing-technology/

".....What are the V-Four’s advantages?

First, a 90-degree Vee engine can easily be given perfect primary balance without resorting to balance shafts.

Second, a compact V-Four centralizes mass very well, as it is the engine closest to being a cannonball.

In your mind, compare the ease of turning corners carrying
a) a 12-foot ladder weighing 24 pounds
or
b) a 24-pound cannonball......"

 

[Busy Little Shop]

MotoGp is the battle of engine architectures and like Mr.Cameron my pick is
the 90º V4 because it sports the *most* advantages...

1) Cube-like crankcase are inherently more rigid than the longer,
beam-like case of an I4 engine.

2)Short V4 crankshaft weights less than an I4...

3)Short V4 crankshaft has less distance to travel and thus takes
physical effort to change direction than I4...

4) 90º V4 has perfect primary balance, a great improvement over
the buzzy, second-order vibration of an I4...

5)A V4 has less internal crank bearing friction and able to spin up
faster and deliver more rear wheel HP...

6) A narrow V4 affords up to a 35% reduction in aerodynamic drag over
the wide I4...

 

[firstbuell]

once this thread is complete [as if !], we can make it a sticky

 

[Lesbusa]

I talked about those issues about 8 yr.s ago. Moto matters and everyone else has had a voice in this for a long time now.

Welcome to 2005 cycleworld.....


and......

 

[Lesbusa]

MotoGp is the battle of engine architectures and like Mr.Cameron my pick is
the 90º V4 because it sports the *most* advantages...

1) Cube-like crankcase are inherently more rigid than the longer,
beam-like case of an I4 engine.

2)Short V4 crankshaft weights less than an I4...

3)Short V4 crankshaft has less distance to travel and thus takes
physical effort to change direction than I4...

4) 90º V4 has perfect primary balance, a great improvement over
the buzzy, second-order vibration of an I4...

5)A V4 has less internal crank bearing friction and able to spin up
faster and deliver more rear wheel HP...

6) A narrow V4 affords up to a 35% reduction in aerodynamic drag over
the wide I4...

A compact V4 has a lot going for it in MotoGP. That is why Suzuki broke tradition and put all of thier energy in that direction. One thing you don't mention is that the 90 degree V4 is longer front to back and potentially taller then an inline 4. Also two heads of two cyl each are in total heavier than one head of 4 cyl.s. Honda's current success has more to do with excellent attention to engineering detail then it has to do with the V4 format itself.

 

[Kurosaki]

 

[Busy Little Shop]

A compact V4 has a lot going for it in MotoGP. That is why Suzuki broke tradition and put all of thier energy in that direction. One thing you don't mention is that the 90 degree V4 is longer front to back and potentially taller then an inline 4. Also two heads of two cyl each are in total heavier than one head of 4 cyl.s. Honda's current success has more to do with excellent attention to engineering detail then it has to do with the V4 format itself.

Mr.Honda viewed engineering as his domain to explore within the walls of his factories...

Soichiro Honda was a mechanical engineer with a passion for
motorcycles and racing.

Torakusu Yamaha passion was musical instruments...

Michio Suzuki was a carpenter who's passion was pedal-driven
wooden looms...

Shozo Kawasaki initial passion was western type ocean going steel
ships...

Antonio Ducati was an electrical engineer with a passion for radios...

Engine weights between an MotoGp I4 and V4 are about equal but whats not
equal are crankshaft weights which effects acceleration rates... the I4
cranks are long an ponderous whereas the V4 cranks are short and sassy...

Some Crankshaft weights to serve as examples...
RSV4 12.9 lbs
RC45 11.2 lbs
RC30 10.8 lb
RC51 13.2 lb
CBR1000RR 18.0 lb
BMW S1000RR 16.7 lbs

 

[kelsodeez]

but seriously, this is old old news.

 

[Busy Little Shop]

I talked about those issues about 8 yr.s ago. Moto matters and everyone else has had a voice in this for a long time now.

Welcome to 2005 cycleworld.....

Starting in 1984 I've debated non stop I4s versus V4s...

 

[CurveSurfer]

Starting in 1984 I've debated non stop I4s versus V4s...

Yes, we know. Nonstop indeed.

 

[squidworth]

V4 is the design of satan. all who succumbs to it's design is destined for hell.

 

[Zerox]

If the V-4 is so good...why did Honda make it a V-5?

 

[Busy Little Shop]

V4 is the design of satan. all who succumbs to it's design is destined for hell.

I'll take Hell for its company and Heaven for its riding climate...

 

[Busy Little Shop]

If the V-4 is so good...why did Honda make it a V-5?

Mr.Honda's race bred Fi V4 were good enough to served as a base for the V5...
you just don't pull a successful V5 out of your ass... just ask Kenny Roberts...

Quote HRC Super Wrench Jeremy Burgess:
"The Honda is the V5, if you look an it closely, has a lot of the
architecture of the RC45/RVF750 with another cylinder attached."

Quote Kevin Cameron:
"As many have noted (including Jeremy Burgess) the original RC211V
V-Five was just a developed V-Four RC45 Superbike engine with an
added cylinder"

 

[clutchslip]

There are very few motorcycle things that I absolutely still want. That dang V5 is one of them. Thanks for listening, Honda.

once this thread is complete [as if !], we can make it a sticky

Ex-cel-lent.

 

[stangmx13]

The different connecting rod ratio to get a shorter engine was interesting. Of course Ducati has gear driven cams so they couldn't implement that without changing all those gears around.

im surprised they dont wear pistons, rings, and cylinders quickly with such a short rod. but obviously they found something in their design that lets them use only 5 engines per year. hell, they prob wont even touch their 5th this year.

 

[sportbiker929]

Re-make the RC-30!

 

[Busy Little Shop]

There are very few motorcycle things that I absolutely still want. That dang V5 is one of them. Thanks for listening, Honda.

Honda is listening but the WSBK rules set the limit to 4 cylinders so without a
production based race venue as a design goal they see no way to recoup the
cost of a V5...

 

[Busy Little Shop]

Re-make the RC-30!

They did in 1994...

 

[cencalballer]

I read the article and think they got one detail wrong. The rod length seems long compared to what Honda normally does and many manufactures. F1 is an anomaly where they have over 100% fill efficiency some say. Bikes aren't at that level. I'm guessing the Honda rod is around 1.5-1.6. The math would certainly indicate that's the way to go.