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VW "Clean" Diesel not really clean

Meter Man said:
IF you don't think that every large company is intentionally skirting the rules and weighing consquences vs savings et al you are living in a fantasy world.
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This is t just skirting the rules. This is a massive fraud that could be relatively easily detected and impossible to explain away. There's more than just a cost benefit analysis that should have gone on here.
 
Reli said:
Like Lance Armstrong, they probably knew that everyone else was doing it.
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But everyone else isn't doing it. VW omitted a device used to cut Nox emissions that everyone else WAS using. Only a matter of time before people were going to find out how they did it.
 
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Meter Man said:
My guess is that there are dozens of similar schemes going on right now that will never be found out.
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Well there aren't that many companies selling diesel passenger cars in the U.S., and at least a few that do are already under investigation by CARB and the EPA. The only company that appears to have passed the real world test so far is BMW. My guess is that there will be more charges coming to a few other companies as well.
 
TheRobSJ said:
Ruh roh shaggy.

VW issued a stop sale order to all dealers for all new and pre owned TDI models currently in inventory. And to Audi also.

Their release statement of "pending an internal investigation" sounds like "every one we sell will be another fine, so don't sell anymore!" Whatever happens, if you were hoping to buy a VW with a TDI, that ain't happening for several weeks, if not months.
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YAY!
my 2013 TDI sportwagen is now a limited edition!! May be a great time to sell, haha.

Also, we got an apology email from the CEO of VW. I will post it later.:teeth
 
augustiron said:
YAY!
my 2013 TDI sportwagen is now a limited edition!! May be a great time to sell,
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The first time that car goes into a VW shop, after the inevitable software fix/compliance, your car's performance will probably drop, along with the price.

It's world wide and not just VW.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/b...n-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0


Pity the fool who had Volkswagen AG stock. I wonder if the share holders will sue? Of course they will, it involves money.
 
The shitty part for people who own these out of warranty, is that if they decide to just removed that portion of code that disables the emissions control to allow the car to run with proper emissions, it screws us.

1) Less power than advertised when purchased.
2) Someone stated earlier that the emissions parts on the car probably won't last long and start to fail at a much higher rate.
#2 is a huge one. Those are extremely expensive parts to replace. On a 2009, the Particulate filter is about $5-6k to replace.
 
Akira-R said:
The shitty part for people who own these out of warranty, is that if they decide to just removed that portion of code that disables the emissions control to allow the car to run with proper emissions, it screws us.

1) Less power than advertised when purchased.
2) Someone stated earlier that the emissions parts on the car probably won't last long and start to fail at a much higher rate.
#2 is a huge one. Those are extremely expensive parts to replace. On a 2009, the Particulate filter is about $5-6k to replace.
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Perhaps I'm missing something, but if NOx was the issue, the DPF does not have anything to do with the removal of it and will not even after the issue is fixed. DPFs only filter particulate matter and will eventually have to be serviced and/or replaced regardless. Such is life with any diesel engine in the modern era, regardless of how clean it is. All diesel engines will always produce particulate matter at a much higher rate than gasoline engines.

Also, why would the advertised power change? A proper tune on the engine to reduce NOx isn't likely to reduce the power output and even if it did, I very much doubt the common owner would even be able to discern it.
 
Furthermore, the use of DOCs would easily help with the NOx issue as would a properly setup EGR system. Shit, even SCR works relatively well assuming you avoid excessive idling (> 5 minutes). VAG could be using all these things if they're not already.
 
^^ Always playing devils' advocate. We wont know until after changes are made but safe to say this wont improve the cars of those than own them (me. 2013 tdi wagon) Only decrease in the amount they pollute....probably by robing power and mpg.

MPG will go down and performance and wear and tear can possibly decrease. If the parts were made to process a certain amount of emissions AND now after a computer tweak they're expected to process 40% more, parts will probably fail sooner.

All speculation at this point.

What we do now is owners bought these as clean operating diesels with great gas mileage and torque. I would have probably bought a Prius if the advertised TDI numbers were much lower.
 
Dubbington said:
^^ Always playing devils' advocate. We wont know until after changes are made but safe to say this wont improve the cars of those than own them (me. 2013 tdi wagon) Only decrease in the amount they pollute....probably by robing power and mpg.

MPG will go down and performance and wear and tear can possibly decrease. If the parts were made to process a certain amount of emissions AND now after a computer tweak they're expected to process 40% more, parts will probably fail sooner.

All speculation at this point.

What we do now is owners bought these as clean operating diesels with great gas mileage and torque. I would have probably bought a Prius if the advertised TDI numbers were much lower.
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Jesus, Ryan. You sound just like all the sniveling, crying and complaining truck companies and owner operators that tried for years to prove that having to clean up their exhaust would cut their performance and mileage. It's not true and they've now all shut up and gone away. If a 600 horsepower/1500 lb-ft of torque diesel engine can be made to operate efficiently and still perform well all with clean exhaust, it can be done for a little 2.0 liter car engine as well. :|
 
Kornholio said:
Perhaps I'm missing something, but if NOx was the issue, the DPF does not have anything to do with the removal of it and will not even after the issue is fixed. DPFs only filter particulate matter and will eventually have to be serviced and/or replaced regardless. Such is life with any diesel engine in the modern era, regardless of how clean it is. All diesel engines will always produce particulate matter at a much higher rate than gasoline engines.

Also, why would the advertised power change? A proper tune on the engine to reduce NOx isn't likely to reduce the power output and even if it did, I very much doubt the common owner would even be able to discern it.
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No, the software trickery shouldn't affect the DPF much unless the "testing" mode is producing more soot than the current default mode.

You absolutely can get more power at the expense of higher NOx, however. And possibly better fuel economy. VW didn't do this for no reason. I'm going to assume it was to hit their FE and hp/torque advertisements. There might not be a significant change in steady state horsepower, but there could have been an improvement in transient response, making the cars feel peppy and torquey........... without a DEF system.

Basically, it was a cost cutting measure in order to market their vehicles against the extremely successful hybrids that totally backfired.
 
aminalmutha said:
No, the software trickery shouldn't affect the DPF much unless the "testing" mode is producing more soot than the current default mode.

You absolutely can get more power at the expense of higher NOx, however. And possibly better fuel economy. VW didn't do this for no reason. I'm going to assume it was to hit their FE and hp/torque advertisements. There might not be a significant change in steady state horsepower, but there could have been an improvement in transient response, making the cars feel peppy and torquey........... without a DEF system.

Basically, it was a cost cutting measure in order to market their vehicles against the extremely successful hybrids that totally backfired.
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But the higher NOx could've been easily been mitigated if they actually made the effort to do so. Some of the people here (and in the reports) are acting like it's not possible to do. Tell that to Cummins, International, Caterpillar, John Deere, et. al.
 
Sharky said:
Road and Track says Urea injection.
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Right, so they didn't use SCR. Not every diesel engine manufacturer has. Caterpillar didn't do it for years...probably still don't but I've been out of the game for a few years. Even still, they made engines with cleaner numbers than many of the Cummins units of the same size and output that did use SCR.
 
Sooo does that mean I can take my 13' TDI back to the dealership and tell them to shove it up their asses because I wasn't sold a "clean" diesel car?
 
Kornholio said:
If a 600 horsepower/1500 lb-ft of torque diesel engine can be made to operate efficiently and still perform well all with clean exhaust, it can be done for a little 2.0 liter car engine as well. :|
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You're forgetting cost, tho. That's the key point. They could have made it work with a DEF system, but they didn't want to add cost.
 
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