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What will it take to convince you of climate change?

I just don't see any change happening where it needs to happen.

Also, how many whistlindiesel tailpipes would it take to equal the pollution from these western fires? Somebody should really tell that guy to stop messing up the environment.

Perhaps a global one-child policy. It's easy to enforce if you sterilize the parents after their first.
 
ctwo said:
I just don't see any change happening where it needs to happen.

Also, how many whistlindiesel tailpipes would it take to equal the pollution from these western fires? Somebody should really tell that guy to stop messing up the environment.

Perhaps a global one-child policy. It's easy to enforce if you sterilize the parents after their first.
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I mean, I get it. I like to take the piss out of folks and post gloomy, nihilistic shit as much as the next guy, so I'm not picking on you at all.

But at some point, the way we're reacting to this slow-moving catastrophe is going to stop seeming funny. I wonder how many nihilistic, snarky comments you'd hear in a leaky lifeboat in the middle of a storm. One day, and a day before we die of old age (unfortunately), the problem will seem that dire to almost everyone. And that is when we'll take serious action.
 
What happened in Au. last summer, the forests burned for lack of good forestry practices of thinning the fuel load due to "the greens"

Did anyone see Newsom's plea about global warming last nite with fire as the backdrop?

Compared to what Az has been doing thinning the forest around Flagstaff.

Not one mention about fuel load and good forestry, just warming.

Just a bit short, , ,
 
I feel pretty good about what I'm doing. I mean, at least my motorcycle has cats, I've put in solar panels, and I don't consume all that much.
 
CDONA said:
What happened in Au. last summer, the forests burned for lack of good forestry practices of thinning the fuel load due to "the greens"

Did anyone see Newsom's plea about global warming last nite with fire as the backdrop?

Compared to what Az has been doing thinning the forest around Flagstaff.

Not one mention about fuel load and good forestry, just warming.

Just a bit short, , ,
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You mean not one mention of what he said on Fox News, right? Because in the real world he very much acknowledges the issue. https://www.gov.ca.gov/2020/08/13/c...rm-strategy-to-manage-forests-and-rangelands/
 
ctwo said:
I just don't see any change happening where it needs to happen.
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There have been lots of clean air efforts over the last several decades. Is it not a good thing for all our ICE's to run cleaner?

ctwo said:
Also, how many whistlindiesel tailpipes would it take to equal the pollution from these western fires? Somebody should really tell that guy to stop messing up the environment.
Click to expand...

A-fucking-shit-ton, but this year is a little bit of an anomaly as far as major fires over the last decade are concerned. We can't do much about lightning, but we can make some defueling efforts and we can certainly update our infrastructure. It's not binary in that it's either everything or nothing, or that one imperfect thing ruins all the things. As with anything, it usually comes down to what you want. If you don't want to do anything, then you look for reasons to do nothing. If you want to do something, you look for ways to do something.

ctwo said:
Perhaps a global one-child policy. It's easy to enforce if you sterilize the parents after their first.
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It's much easier where there are existing cultures which have an appreciation for efficiency, like with many EU countries, because it can exist without law and laws surrounding offspring are too 1984. In the US, excess is culturally celebrated and that's the dumb person's understanding of freedom, so as long as we have lots of dumb people, we're going to have lots of dumb people. That's a subject I really wish were a part of our founding documents, something about finite resources and beware of endless growth.
 
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byke said:
If you don't want to do anything, then you look for reasons to do nothing. If you want to do something, you look for ways to do something.
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Brilliant summation of this entire thread...indeed the entirety of climate-change denial. Conservatives like to fix problems, but only if they can do it for free. As soon as a problem needs other people (and money) to fix, they'll bend themselves into incredible contortions to deny there's any problem at all, that in fact, the solution itself is the problem.

One guy I know told me the consequences of doing too much to combat global warming are far worse than the consequences of doing nothing, because it would lead to a global Marxist state and tens of millions of people would die in forced labor camps, etc. For real.

The microscopic chance we would turn into a global Stalinist state is a much greater risk than the millions, maybe billions of people dying from war, disease and famine as the ice caps melt and most of the land mass becomes uninhabitable desert. In fact, there's a MUCH great chance of totalitarianism taking hold of the planet if we're all fighting for resources. Duh.

That's a subject I really wish were a part of our founding documents, something about finite resources and beware of endless growth.
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But the cheerleaders for the purity and perfection of unregulated free-market "capitalism" (never mind no such thing has ever existed) MUST believe in endless growth and consumption. That's because it's basically a Ponzi scheme that accumulates wealth at the top and shakes out crumbs for the masses, and some of them get to the top and then poorer people take their place. So acknowledging our planet is fragile, with finite resources and a complex ecosystem that's easily damaged by human activity reminds them just how wrong they are.
 
Eldritch said:
What Nonsense are you spewing that this is an America problem? We are clearly doing our part. We are not even close to the number one producer, with China having twice the Carbon footprint we do, and we aren't even in the top 3 for Carbon Footprint Per Capita.

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/each-countrys-share-co2-emissions

It is a global problem, certainly, but to suggest the U.S. is not doing their part is absurd.
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It is America, China and India's problem.

Mike you are looking at CO2 emission and not straight up carbon that is pumped into the atmosphere from coal powered industries that US (REMOVED FOR POLITICAL CONTENT), China and India have the most of in the world. But all three are big enough markets that the rest of the world does not have courage to stand up to.

Look at China. FWIW, it IS the source of COVID-19 and should've been punished severely for hiding it from the rest of the world (especially California which hundreds of sickened people from Wuhan arriving via direct flight daily into California). CCP kills people for small crimes, but has done nothing to those responsible for a million deaths across the world. Everyone knows this but other than Australia nobody has even raised the question of ascertaining the cause.
 
There's a bit of confusion about "forest management." There has never been "forest management" in the US. We cut it down and plant. We cut it down and build houses with it, or use it for paper pulp.

As population spread in California, and that's only been in the last fifty years, we've moved close to and into the forests. That is where the problem is. Does anyone here think that there has been forest management for the last fifteen thousand years, prior to "western civilization" coming? Nope. We're now living in the forests, and the fires that used to just burn and clear the brush have been no longer allowed their function. And now that's coming home to roost.

Should we be living there? It's good business. This is Capitalism.

What these fires are is simple forest management. There won't be any serious fires there for many decades.
 
afm199 said:
There's a bit of confusion about "forest management." There has never been "forest management" in the US. We cut it down and plant. We cut it down and build houses with it, or use it for paper pulp.

As population spread in California, and that's only been in the last fifty years, we've moved close to and into the forests. That is where the problem is. Does anyone here think that there has been forest management for the last fifteen thousand years, prior to "western civilization" coming? Nope. We're now living in the forests, and the fires that used to just burn and clear the brush have been no longer allowed their function. And now that's coming home to roost.

Should we be living there? It's good business. This is Capitalism.

What these fires are is simple forest management. There won't be any serious fires there for many decades.
Click to expand...

I understand what you’re saying that there is no management, and I agree. There has been a lot of mismanagement, since the 1930s.
 
brichter said:
I understand what you’re saying that there is no management, and I agree. There has been a lot of mismanagement, since the 1930s.
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There has never been management in California. To my knowledge, just amelioration near residences.
 
afm199 said:
There's a bit of confusion about "forest management." There has never been "forest management" in the US. We cut it down and plant. We cut it down and build houses with it, or use it for paper pulp.

As population spread in California, and that's only been in the last fifty years, we've moved close to and into the forests. That is where the problem is. Does anyone here think that there has been forest management for the last fifteen thousand years, prior to "western civilization" coming? Nope. We're now living in the forests, and the fires that used to just burn and clear the brush have been no longer allowed their function. And now that's coming home to roost.

Should we be living there? It's good business. This is Capitalism.

What these fires are is simple forest management. There won't be any serious fires there for many decades.
Click to expand...

100% this.

My understanding is even the natives used fires to control vegetation. These days there are barely any controlled burns.

Also, private land is a shitshow. My neighborhood is a disaster just waiting to happen. At $3K+ to remove a tree, and zero support from the government, it's not surprising.

Seems like nobody in the local or state government is genuinely interested in finding a solution.
 
brichter said:
I understand what you’re saying that there is no management, and I agree. There has been a lot of mismanagement, since the 1930s.
Click to expand...

afm199 said:
There has never been management in California. To my knowledge, just amelioration near residences.
Click to expand...

so the undergrowth, which is the most dangerous fuel, is not something that grows slowly. and where it’s under a canopy, it’s not something that grows particularly dense as far as forests go (it was something i found a stark contrast in california forests - where i grew up, forests are so thick with undergrowth that you can’t walk through them except on paths that have been cleared). that would imply that while there has been a lack of management, there is something else going on as well.
 
mrzuzzo said:
100% this.

My understanding is even the natives used fires to control vegetation. These days there are barely any controlled burns.

Also, private land is a shitshow. My neighborhood is a disaster just waiting to happen. At $3K+ to remove a tree, and zero support from the government, it's not surprising.

Seems like nobody in the local or state government is genuinely interested in finding a solution.
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If the government were genuinely interested they’d stop subsidizing, not increase it.
 
Let’s not forget there have been at least 5 ice ages in history where the earth cooled off and heated up all by itself before humans existed. I’m sure man made pollution has an effect but maybe this just Nature?
 
The good news is all the shade being thrown by these fires should cool things down a bit...
 
greenmonster said:
Let’s not forget there have been at least 5 ice ages in history where the earth cooled off and heated up all by itself before humans existed. I’m sure man made pollution has an effect but maybe this just Nature?
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And how many millennia did that take, and what were the root causes?
 
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