What will it take to convince you of climate change?

[ctwo]

You've all but admitted all the basic components of human-caused warming/climate change, so why not go all in?

What the hell does that mean?

Do you guys not admit that the earth was warming before our ancestors started burning shit?

I get your point about nature being really in charge. It is, unfortunately, extremely true. We can't fix very much of what we've done but I think we can keep it from getting worse, and if we start down a new path my grandchildren might have a nice place to live.

I said it in another thread - no matter what we do, the inertia of what is happening will continue far beyond your grandkids. This is not like getting the neighborhood chimney smoke to blow away by implementing a spare the air day. Ironically, California leads the nation in climate change policy, but everything gained through those climate change policies literally went up in smoke this year. So maybe a prudent policy should be geared to preventing the state from burning. It is not like we weren't aware of this problem.

Again, what does "going all in" entail, exactly, and what do you really expect to come of it (ROI)? Do you think voting for Mr. Hairdew and all the climate change initiatives will change things any time soon? I rather think we have hit a self-sustaining inflection point and these fires are doing more harm that contributes many times over to the issue.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200821-how-wildfire-pollution-may-be-harming-your-health

 

[brichter]

Ironically, California leads the nation in climate change policy, but everything gained through those climate change policies literally went up in smoke this year. So maybe a prudent policy should be geared to preventing the state from burning. It is not like we weren't aware of this problem.

Interesting position. The state is already gearing towards preventing the state from burning, and has made some sea changes in the way they are going about it. Do you think that will be all it takes to fix the climate change issue?

Do you think voting for Mr. Hairdew and all the climate change initiatives will change things any time soon? I rather think we have hit a self-sustaining inflection point

So, f we can't change anything soon, we can ignore it?

Serious questions here, it seems like you have an idea what it will take to fix the issue, I'm interested in hearing it.

 

[ctwo]

Interesting position. The state is already gearing towards preventing the state from burning, and has made some sea changes in the way they are going about it. Do you think that will be all it takes to fix the climate change issue?



So, f we can't change anything soon, we can ignore it?

Serious questions here, it seems like you have an idea what it will take to fix the issue, I'm interested in hearing it.

Fix the climate change issue? Not gonna happen. That chart on the previous page kind of says there is no projection that brings the curve back to zero, or even reverses the direction.

All I am saying is that we need to be realistic about what is happening and will continue to happen, no matter what this little country tries to do. There are far too many people that want what they want, and the rest of the world is not marching to our drum anyway.

In another post, I presented a hypothetical of shutting down all the pumps and non-renewable energy production, along with US manufacturing, etc. In doing so, I'd expect the impact to the trajectory to be marginal for more than a lifetime, lifetimes in fact, and maybe 10k years to get the curve back to zero.

Oh, that doesn't mean we should ignore the issue. Sure we can try to do what we can. I mean a lot of those programs make serious money for some. But we should be realistic and plan for the consequences so we don't have to keep suffering from things that we can control today.

For example, someone posted an inference that it is not possible to effectively manage our forests. Meh, so I guess we should not even try? Or maybe we should invest in more of those kinds of programs and fire mitigation so this kind of stuff does not blow out of control, year after year, because our climate change programs are not going to keep pace if we don't.

And the rising seas. They're going to happen, like gay marriage. Shoring up levies and armoring our coastlines are not the solutions that we should be considering.

Mandating electric vehicles and solar panels everywhere and banning fossil fuel burning is a feelgood thing to do, I just don't believe it is going to have that much of an impact, but like I said let's do it anyway because it generates income.

 

[rothmans]

I am pretty convinced at this point. I am in the process of selling most of my motorcycles right now (seriously).

A dear motorcyclist friend of mine in Australia who is pretty far left politically and a big believer in climate change was telling me about the extreme fires and temps there in Oz earlier this year.
I calmly pointed out that he had defeated every emission control device on his 7 motorcycles, ripped off every PAIR valve and modified every exhaust.

 

[brichter]

Fix the climate change issue? Not gonna happen. That chart on the previous page kind of says there is no projection that brings the curve back to zero, or even reverses the direction.

Meh, that's not what it says, but ok.

We've had 85 years of fucking up the forests, so starting with all the areas where people live now would be a good beginning. Might not have a huge effect overall, but at least the losses of people's houses could be lessened, along with saving on everyone's insurance rates.

Not sure how you think our country can't make a dent in it, we're the second largest CO2 emitter (in 2018, the latest numbers I could find) in the world behind China. It will take a global effort, but starting at home isn't a bad idea. Or, we could sit around with our collective thumbs up our asses and watch it happen, like some are already. And, as you pointed out, it's good for the economy.

 

[brichter]

I calmly pointed out that he had defeated every emission control device on his 7 motorcycles, ripped off every PAIR valve and modified every exhaust.

You should thank him for helping curtail global warming.

 

[Gabe]

What the hell does that mean?





I said it in another thread - no matter what we do, the inertia of what is happening will continue far beyond your grandkids. This is not like getting the neighborhood chimney smoke to blow away by implementing a spare the air day. Ironically, California leads the nation in climate change policy, but everything gained through those climate change policies literally went up in smoke this year. So maybe a prudent policy should be geared to preventing the state from burning. It is not like we weren't aware of this problem.

Again, what does "going all in" entail, exactly, and what do you really expect to come of it (ROI)? Do you think voting for Mr. Hairdew and all the climate change initiatives will change things any time soon? I rather think we have hit a self-sustaining inflection point and these fires are doing more harm that contributes many times over to the issue.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200821-how-wildfire-pollution-may-be-harming-your-health

I see y9our point, but there are plenty of people, scientists and policy makers, who do not believe they should throw their hands in the air and just wait for the floods. We can ameliorate the inevitilbe effects, AND we can curb GHG emissions to slow and even taper off the increase in global temperature.

I don't know why Americans have this "only total, perfect solutions are worth trying" attitude. Enacting climate-friendly policies is the right thing to do.

 

[ctwo]

Meh, that's not what it says, but ok.

We've had 85 years of fucking up the forests, so starting with all the areas where people live now would be a good beginning. Might not have a huge effect overall, but at least the losses of people's houses could be lessened, along with saving on everyone's insurance rates.

Not sure how you think our country can't make a dent in it, we're the second largest CO2 emitter (in 2018, the latest numbers I could find) in the world behind China. It will take a global effort, but starting at home isn't a bad idea. Or, we could sit around with our collective thumbs up our asses and watch it happen, like some are already. And, as you pointed out, it's good for the economy.

The best case scenario in the chart basically swings the plot back to vertical after 20 more years post drastic action and best case scenario, and by 2100 the estimation is still more than 1C over where we were in 1980.How could we possibly change that course after we've destroyed so much of the ecosystem that is necessary to effect that change?

The reason I think we can't make a dent is because my expectations about what we can actually effect in this country is realistic. People want what they want and the population is expanding at an exponential rate. But just because I have a realistic outlook does not mean I think we should sit and spin and do nothing. By all means, we should do what we can, but with a pertinent plan that addresses the inevitable that we are sure to face, such as continued grand-scale fires, rising seas, hurricanes and tornadoes, and etc.

I see y9our point, but there are plenty of people, scientists and policy makers, who do not believe they should throw their hands in the air and just wait for the floods. We can ameliorate the inevitilbe effects, AND we can curb GHG emissions to slow and even taper off the increase in global temperature.

I don't know why Americans have this "only total, perfect solutions are worth trying" attitude. Enacting climate-friendly policies is the right thing to do.

I don't think most Americans really care all that much, especially if they had to endure the needed changes, and aren't you an American too? And it's not like we do nothing, I mean there are at least improved vehicle emissions standards. I read that some motorcycles will be discontinued because they can't meet the new Euro standards and we've done something with off-road vehicle licensing. But really, we need to shut off all the pumps and figure out other ways for our society to function.

 

[brichter]

The best case scenario in the chart basically swings the plot back to vertical after 20 more years post drastic action and best case scenario, and by 2100 the estimation is still more than 1C over where we were in 1980.How could we possibly change that course after we've destroyed so much of the ecosystem that is necessary to effect that change?

So you noticed the chart stops at 2100. Is that the Mayan date where the world ends?

The reason I think we can't make a dent is because my expectations about what we can actually effect in this country is realistic. People want what they want and the population is expanding at an exponential rate. But just because I have a realistic outlook does not mean I think we should sit and spin and do nothing. By all means, we should do what we can, but with a pertinent plan that addresses the inevitable that we are sure to face, such as continued grand-scale fires, rising seas, hurricanes and tornadoes, and etc.

Sorry, I didn't realize your thought was the only correct one.

I don't think most Americans really care all that much, especially if they had to endure the needed changes, and aren't you an American too?

So, because I'm an American I don't care?

You're too full of assumptions to engage in a discussion.

 

[ctwo]

So you noticed the chart stops at 2100. Is that the Mayan date where the world ends?



Sorry, I didn't realize your thought was the only correct one.



So, because I'm an American I don't care?

You're too full of assumptions to engage in a discussion.

Everyone has an opinion and some are based on scientific research. I'm not a climatologist, but my understanding is that at most the primary effect is documented and data is collected. It looks to me that the trajectory was influenced at the start of the industrial age, so since we live in a balanced bubble, it would seem we would at least need to return emissions to levels before then. Projecting, even for the experts, is primarily educated guesswork. My opinion.

I guess discussion is reserved for all out climate change deniers then? And here we get back to what everyone is really itching for, with regard to climate change, BLM and the police, or whatever. It seems all people want to do is point blame and ridicule.

My other comment was clearly directed at:
"I don't know why Americans have this "only total, perfect solutions are worth trying" attitude."" - Gabe

 

[mrmarklin]

I’ll be convinced when our “scientists “ quit their shaky data gathering and bullshit computer modeling to get their grant money.

They ignore the fact that in general the earth has been warming since the ice age.
Oh yeah, let’s ignore the Medieval Warming Period and the Little Ice Age as anomalies and blame the deniers.

 

[Brokenlink]

I’ll be convinced when our “scientists “ quit their shaky data gathering and bullshit computer modeling to get their grant money.

They ignore the fact that in general the earth has been warming since the ice age.
Oh yeah, let’s ignore the Medieval Warming Period and the Little Ice Age as anomalies and blame the deniers.

Please show an example of what you are describing. What's funny is that you seem to believe the "science" that fits your narrative while whole heartedly discounting the 99% of scientists who are in agreement on this issue. Basically, nothing will convince you. Nothing. Which is exactly why I stopped even bothering with these "sciency" type of discussion. You truly can't educate someone or even have a rational discussion when the basic education or reasoning skills don't exist.

We are truly doomed. Climate change or not, the dumbing down of our population has gone too far. I don't think we can recover.

 

[Blankpage]

I’ll be convinced when our “scientists “ quit their shaky data gathering and bullshit computer modeling to get their grant money.

They ignore the fact that in general the earth has been warming since the ice age.
Oh yeah, let’s ignore the Medieval Warming Period and the Little Ice Age as anomalies and blame the deniers.

You’ve got a point, the sun is going to burn itself out eventually. Making all this law and order and retirement planning look pretty silly.

 

[mrmarklin]

You’ve got a point, the sun is going to burn itself out eventually. Making all this law and order and retirement planning look pretty silly.

Exactly correct.
Of course when winning the lottery is part of one’s retirement plan, it puts a complexion on things.

 

[SVJ]

Please show an example of what you are describing. What's funny is that you seem to believe the "science" that fits your narrative while whole heartedly discounting the 99% of scientists who are in agreement on this issue. Basically, nothing will convince you. Nothing. Which is exactly why I stopped even bothering with these "sciency" type of discussion. You truly can't educate someone or even have a rational discussion when the basic education or reasoning skills don't exist.

We are truly doomed. Climate change or not, the dumbing down of our population has gone too far. I don't think we can recover.

How many years did humans sacrifice one another to appease their gods? How dumb is that? Formal education is relatively new... Humans will survive and continue to do what we do. Kill each other and survive. Pick your your religion, now fight!

 

[Gabe]

I’ll be convinced when our “scientists “ quit their shaky data gathering and bullshit computer modeling to get their grant money.

They ignore the fact that in general the earth has been warming since the ice age.
Oh yeah, let’s ignore the Medieval Warming Period and the Little Ice Age as anomalies and blame the deniers.

Better sell yer hawgs, homey...those things are 100% designed using "bullshit" computer modeling by "engineers." And they did it for money! Obviously corrupt people.

 

[mrmarklin]

Better sell yer hawgs, homey...those things are 100% designed using "bullshit" computer modeling by "engineers." And they did it for money! Obviously corrupt people.

They run very well. No tweaking of data.

 

[mrmarklin]

How many years did humans sacrifice one another to appease their gods? How dumb is that? Formal education is relatively new... Humans will survive and continue to do what we do. Kill each other and survive. Pick your your religion, now fight!

One could argue that the Maya, Inca and Aztecs were great civilizations. Don’t judge so harshly. They accomplished a lot.

 

[ctwo]

How dare any layperson question the scientists. Some of them seem to have been saying this will be a self correcting problem since the early 1900's, so we might as well keep it pedal to the metal.

"The world will run out of oil in 10 years."
- U.S. Bureau of Mines (1914)
"The world will run out of oil in 13 years."
- U.S. Department of the Interior (1939 and 1950)
"The world will run out of oil and other fossil fuels by 1990."
- Paul Erlich, Limits to Growth (1973)
"The world will run out of oil in 2030, and other fossil fuels in 2050."
- Paul Erlich, Beyond the Limit (2002)

See? Nothing to worry about.

 

[Gabe]

They run very well. No tweaking of data.

Dude, there are probably in excess of 20,000 climate studies that rely on computer modeling. You of course, since you made a sweeping, absolute statement, have a degree in computer science and personally reviewed each and every one of these models, ran them on huge main-frame supercomputers hundreds of times, so you know 1000% percent that they're all BS, right?

I get it: your mind is completely unchangeable on this issue because you don't understand the science and don't like the implications of what could happen to you and your lifestyle if you're wrong or if we take the serious action it will take to ameliorate the problem. That is totally your right as an American.

Just don't make up shit or repost lies, rumor and innuendo designed to obfuscate the truth and prevent or slow progress. That you don't have a right to do.

"This arm is my arm (and my wife’s), it is not yours. Up here I have a right to strike out with it as I please. I go over there with these gentlemen and swing my arm and exercise the natural right which you have granted; I hit one man on the nose, another under the ear, and as I go down the stairs on my head, I cry out:

“Is not this a free country?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Have not I a right to swing my arm?”

“Yes, but your right to swing your arm leaves off where my right not to have my nose struck begins.”

Here civil government comes in to prevent bloodshed, adjust rights, and settle disputes."

--John Finch

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/10/15/liberty-fist-nose/