Which is more boring II

[turbodogs02]

Ok....I just finished watching about half of the 1999 WSBK season review video. I've got a couple of other observations to branch off of the other thread (but I didn't want to totally jack it, so I made my own).

Firstly, I think that racing has changed, and not neccessarily for the better.

I've theorized MotoGP is worse off due to traction control, electronic(s) rider aides, computer wizardry, etc......
The AMA is just a mess of too similar classes, individual factory domination per class (Suz - sbk, Hon - FX, etc.), just plain lifeless processional racing in general.

But overall I think what is bringing racing down in general is that it's becoming to sanitized.

My first thought came when watching the '99 races. The tracks. Look at all the awesome old school tracks. You had Kyalami, Albacete, the A1 ring, Brands Hatch, even Assen back when Assen was cool...........what happened to the tracks with character? Nowadays you have these computer designed F1 circuits that are completely void of any character whatsoever. While they may be "technical", they don't have any soul. They are just lifeless strips of tarmac, fashioned together inside beautifully sterile paddock and grandstand facilities.

Granted "safety" is usually the first thing that gets brought up when you talk about the tracks of yesterday. But, shoot, I saw plenty of airfence all around each and every one of those circuits and there were a few riders who put it to good use! Why can't we take racing back there again?



The bikes. Well what hasn't already been said about today's modern supercomputer on wheels?
Again, very technical in all it's glory, but it's just a cold soulless robot compared to the rad bikes like the old 500's or how about the R7 (which made its debut in '99), Honda's V4.....just watching Foggy ring the neck of his poor 996....magic. You had the Kawi up and running good and even Goddard had an Aprilia out there. Anyway, I digress....like I said I just watched that, and it's fresh in my mind.
The point is, the bikes were bikes, and the men that rode them were actually riding them in a way that was, I don't know, artful? Poetic? There was a certain beauty that was evident on the track seeing the control they had over machines that were on the gnats ass edge of being out of control. Think back to when Schwantz and Doohan were wrestling those wonderful 500's around, back and forth they'd pass each other, bikes bucking and weaving with every input from the braking zone through acceleration.




I think what it comes down to is an endless progression of "improvement". Yes I know it's impossible to stand in the way of "progress", but it just seems like the further we progress, we lose touch with what came before. I think part of racing's charms where the unknowns, the blemishes, the ........ I don't know. Today you have perfectly manicured racing facilities, riders behind velvet ropes, unaccessable to the common man (in general), racing series where no privateer in his right mind has any chance/hope of competing with factory riders AND no hope of ever getting a shot at a factory ride unless your 16 and possess un-godly like talent. You have perfect bikes, tires, racing transporters.......maybe I'm just old and cranky.

I was watching video from a past 500 race and do you know what Mick Doohan's "garage" looked like? Do you think it was the air conditioned, hospitality ladened, palatial estate that today's riders have? Hell no. It was a freakin canvas tent. Just like you or I would have out there. An EZ-Up of sorts.


Today's racing has no soul!!! It is awash in corporate interests/money, greedy factories, and computer techs. I hate it. It's boring and lame. I understand a lot of the same issues where present in the past too. But it's getting to the point where......shoot like I said, in the past you'd see random dudes getting a ride, not anymore. It'll never happen. You'd see random bikes making a charge up the grid on occasion. Not anymore.


What's my point? I don't have one. I just wanted to rant.



How's this then.............
What about bringing back some of the "old school tracks"? At least we can get some good scenery again. At least there would be some interesting races from that perspective. Have we progressed to far? Have the bikes outgrown the facilities? If so, what about dumbing them down with the electronics?





Ok I'm done for now!

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

I've theorized MotoGP is worse off due to traction control, electronic(s) rider aides, computer wizardry, etc......

I like the technological progression we've seen. To me it is cool. On a smaller scale I would much rather get out on track with a brand new R6 or Gixxer 600 with all their technological improvements than my old F2. That thing was scary!

My first thought came when watching the '99 races. The tracks. Look at all the awesome old school tracks. You had Kyalami, Albacete, the A1 ring, Brands Hatch, even Assen back when Assen was cool...........what happened to the tracks with character?......

Yeah, I think there's a consensus they ruined Assen.

I think what it comes down to is an endless progression of "improvement". Yes I know it's impossible to stand in the way of "progress", but it just seems like the further we progress, we lose touch with what came before. I think part of racing's charms where the unknowns, the blemishes, the ........ I don't know. Today you have perfectly manicured racing facilities, riders behind velvet ropes, unaccessable to the common man (in general), racing series where no privateer in his right mind has any chance/hope of competing with factory riders AND no hope of ever getting a shot at a factory ride unless your 16 and possess un-godly like talent. You have perfect bikes, tires, racing transporters.......maybe I'm just old and cranky.

O.K. slick, here's something that'll make the next MotoGP round more interesting for you. $50 on the table if you can call, right now-today, who's going to win the next round.

If so, what about dumbing them down with the electronics?

Definitely not. I'm not in favor of penalizing Yoshimura or Ducati by adding restrictions just because they got it right. That's something I think Edmundson may be after but I'm not sure I'd agree with his mentality although he may come up with some other good things to grow the fan base for AMA.

 

[sihondalove]

i think the resolution is pretty simple, but so complicated at the same time, tracks are fine, i love them all (but of course to each his own) but i believe in places like, WSBK,WSS,AMA super, &stock, BSB, since they are racing the same bikes we are they should use about the same equipment that we get, ...if we dont get traction control then they dont get it etc ect....i mean on the bikes BARF members are how many have traction control?? and thats where you would see the close racing consistantly...and thats what i watch those classes for,

now for MOTOGP i want to see close races as well, but its a "concept" or "developmental" class, they pretty much have no holds bar and can do what they want to their bikes, and traction control has been in motogp for a long time, but its just more usefull now because motogp does not use 990cc monsters that pump 230hp no way a traction system can control those beasts, but now that motogp used 800cc engines that barely pump out 210hp traction control is more usefull, guys can hold the throttel wide open in turns and slowly stand the bike up and have perfect drive out of the corners, and as it turns out Casey Stoner is the best at it so far.....sucks for me because im a Rossi fan and im not used to see him get his ass kicked....sad but true!


now you ask yourself....(and time will tell the whold story) but why is Rossi having trouble? why is Lorenzo so fast? How did Dovisioso finish ahead of Rossi? in their first motogp race?!?!!? huh? and why is Melandri who has been making progress in the past few years making the factory Ducati like shit? the older "style" riders (not talking about age) but im talking about REAL RIDERS!!!!!! guys who know how to slide the bike like Melandri >>http://youtube.com/watch?v=huKVVNU4V3s or Rossi>>>http://youtube.com/watch?v=Lc3sh8uXT2k but that is not the way to be fast any more, and thats unfortunate for spectators because thats what we wanna see!!

but the older riders are used to that, and the new crop of riders ie Stoner,Lorenzo,Dovisioso,Pedrosa....they are pretty fresh off the 125 and 250 sceen...and riding a well tracion controlled 800cc is just like riding a 125 or 250cc bike, just the 800cc has a bigger engine...both bikes are pretty flickable, both you can hold wide open throttel in the corners and so on so on.....

its also tuff on manufactures who constinly have to come up with new bikes, 500cc was great because it was around for years and years and all bike makers had a chance to develope the bikes so much that they were all pretty close in developement,

then 990ccs were around for what 5 years? then all of a sudden motogp wants 800cc's?!?!? that was quick, so its just that Ducati got it right off the back.... so hopefully motogp sticks with 800cc's for a while and everybody gets a chance to catch up....OK IM DONE!!!!!

 

[sv_goon]

I was watching F1 qualifying last night and I guess this year they've done away with traction control and given everyone a control ECU.

Cars were sliding around, drifting on the way out of turns, all out of shape. One of the drivers in an interview said they've "given the cars back to the drivers." Fun to see. I'm actually interested to see the race, cuz maybe there will be some passing somewhere other than the fuel stops. Been a long time since I could say that about F1.

Got me thinking about what's happened to MotoGP. I think bike racing will always be better than F1 racing, just because there will always be more rider skill involved, but the electronics are definitely making the show less exciting.

Of course, I think I'd much prefer the fancy electronics as a rider, knowing odds are good I'm not going to fire myself into a low orbit if I whack the throttle open mid-corner.

Cheers...

 

[stangmx13]

.....

now for MOTOGP i want to see close races as well, but its a "concept" or "developmental" class, they pretty much have no holds bar and can do what they want to their bikes, and traction control has been in motogp for a long time, but its just more usefull now because motogp does not use 990cc monsters that pump 230hp no way a traction system can control those beasts, but now that motogp used 800cc engines that barely pump out 210hp traction control is more usefull, guys can hold the throttel wide open in turns and slowly stand the bike up and have perfect drive out of the corners, and as it turns out Casey Stoner is the best at it so far.....sucks for me because im a Rossi fan and im not used to see him get his ass kicked....sad but true!


....

chock this up to technological progress again, but its not that the bikes r tame now, allowing the TC to do its job. its jus that the TC is THAT much better. when TC first came out, all it did was sense differences in wheel speed and retard the ignition timing to bring the power down until the wheel speeds matched up. but w/ current tire profiles, how would that system work w/ the bike leaned over... nowadays, the whole system does a fuckton more, somehow bringing together data from their entire data aq system (lean angle and g-forces for ex) to be able to consistently apply the most possible torque to the rear wheel. ride-by-wire is relatively new even in MotoGP, so the whole TC system has even more control now. the applicable engineering field, Linear Controls, has grown by leaps and bounds in the last 5yrs alone and its only gonna get better.

so ya its bad for racing at the moment, mostly cuz some ppl have it right and walk away w/ the series while others r stuck at the back. but that happens all the time. rem when Ferrari ruled F1 (do they still?), or Yoshi Suzukis domination of AMA SBK, or Roush's consistency in Nascar, or John Force's reign in FunnyCar, or even Honda's rule w/ their NSR500... personally, i think that w/ enough time everyone will get it right and well c some amazing racing.

 

[sihondalove]

^^^yes true, over time eveybody will get on the same page and the races will get closer.....but i have to agree and disagree at the same time with your first statement....yet of course every year the techno' becomes alot better ie: TC, but i think it comes in play more with powerd down engines then very high powerd engines, TC has more of a chance with 800cc, then 990cc.....

(oh wait do you hear that sound in the back round??? shhh listen!!!! its Marco Milandri beating himself in the head for switching to Ducati hahaha jk)

 

[stangmx13]

its def a combination of a bunch of things... perhaps because the smaller engines r now spinning faster, TC can effectively react quicker because the power pulse from the motor that it wants to cut actually comes sooner. hehe, i could make guesses like that all day long. or maybe, the TC is actually forced to work harder because the smaller engines have a peak-ier powerband, much more similar to a 2-stroke. prob not true because factories r getting really damn good w/ cam profiles, timing, and fuel delivery to prevent this, but u get my pt. if i ever get to work for HRC one day, ill let u kno for sure. deal?

honestly, im still undecided as to why bikes r faster each year even after limiting fuel, adding weight, and decreasing displacement. is it testing time? tire tech? higher rev limits? TC? rider improvement? engine mapping? bringing back the screamer? im sure its everything and i love it when they go faster, but itll always be fun to make conjectures, eh?

 

[Archimedes]

Totally agree with the OP on everything he said. Racing at every level has gotten more boring. At the club level, it's a mess of too many classes to even begin to get me interested. At the AMA level, the classes currently make no sense and the premier class, Superbike, is a joke (Will Ben or Matt win? Who gives a fuck.). At the GP level, it's all electronics and mid-corner speed. Memo to DORNA, there's already a 250 class, there was no need to make the top tier GP class a glorified 250 bike.

I'll never forget the first time I saw Nicky Hayden flying into turn 2 at Laguna with the rear stepped out like a dirt tracker on a Superbike (Kawi 750?). Or watching WSB races that mattered where a good 5-8 riders had a real chance to win any weekend. I never thought I'd miss John Kocinski and Carl Fogarty, but I have to say I do right now. Watching the robots that rule racing ride their supercomputers bores me to death.

Racing really has become a yawner on so many levels. It's really sad. The only thing that even begins to draw my interest this year is WSB, but we'll have to see how that plays out. It might still turn out to be a Ducati cup series.

 

[Zerox]

I never thought I'd miss John Kocinski and Carl Fogarty, but I have to say I do right now.

I always liked John Kocinski, his talent was unquestionable.

I got no problem with MotoGP or WSB, it's exciting most of the time. The AMA Superbike stuff is just awful to watch though, no wonder there are only 14 fans in the stands at each race, and the TV ratings are lower than tractor pulls.

The AMA guvment is gonna have to step in and break up the Suzuki monopoly, they're too good! And keep the damn factories out of the privateer classes, the little guy can't even get any table scraps.

 

[afmotorsports]

O.K. slick, here's something that'll make the next MotoGP round more interesting for you. $50 on the table if you can call, right now-today, who's going to win the next round.

If I had to take that bet it would have to be on Stoner (undoubtedly the favorite to take the #1 plate), but for even money it's probably a bad bet to take Stoner for the win against at least half a dozen riders who also have a solid chance. I would certainly take Stoner for $20 to "place", but that would be a bad bet for you...

To some extent I think MotoGP was getting a little boring because you had the same "players" and for the most part, the pecking order was already established. With Lorenzo, Davizioso, and Toseland in the game, you now have fresh blood and you can tell they're hungry. Try to remember that WSBK was also a complete snooze-fest when it first became the Ducati-Pirelli Cup, but once they inserted a few top riders (Bayliss, Haga, Biaggi, etc.) and ALL the manufacturers stepped up their game, the series became more interesting to watch. And remember that WSBK also had traction-control (not just MotoGP and AMA Superbike) and nobody seems to complain about it in that series.

Some of you guys make the error of judging the MotoGP series by the rules/bikes instead of the riders. Same thing with AMA Superbike - it's not Ben and Matt's fault, it's all the other factory teams who are not stepping up to the plate (how come Honda and Yamaha can be competitive in WSBK but not so much in AMA Superbike?? is that Yosh's fault???)

 

[sihondalove]

i cant wait for C5 in 2009 to enter AMA thats gonna be sweet!!!!!!

 

[Zerox]

Same thing with AMA Superbike - it's not Ben and Matt's fault, it's all the other factory teams who are not stepping up to the plate (how come Honda and Yamaha can be competitive in WSBK but not so much in AMA Superbike?? is that Yosh's fault???)

Damn right it's Yosh Suzuki's fault....they're working too hard! Why don't they take a vacation and let the other factory teams catch up. Or put Ben and Mat on 750's so the Honda/Yamaha/Kawi literbikes might have a chance.

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

If I had to take that bet it would have to be on Stoner (undoubtedly the favorite to take the #1 plate), but for even money it's probably a bad bet to take Stoner for the win against at least half a dozen riders who also have a solid chance.

And that's my point. Now with AMA I'd probably not offer up the bet but even there I don't know if it'll be Mat or Ben on top at the next round but it will (most likely) be Yosh either way.

It is racing so anything can happen in any round at any level. The odds to take the win are greatly increased if the rider (and the effort behind him) has got their sh*t right and together whether it be at the AMA level or club level. Take our own FP for example. Any one of a handful of guys can be picked to win for this upcoming round but if you're looking for a TOTALLY NEW guy to show up out of the blue so it's not always the same few winning and make it REAL interesting, well then I'll take that bet too.

 

[sihondalove]

Im taking Rossi in Jerez, you really cant bet agenst Rossi in Jerez, no matter what he is riding, same for him in Mugello!!!

 

[turbodogs02]

Well there have been some interesting thoughts already. Very cool. I like seeing everyone's opinion on stuff.

In taking a day to ponder what I originally posted, I think my whole point was that racing in general is just to sanitized. It's like it's been rubbed clean with anti-bacterial soap so now it's germ free. Well like some have said, you take away too many germs, and you may end up getting sicker later. Some germs are good.

I don't have a problem with Yosh, for instance, totally kicking the rest of the factories collective asses week in and week out. Boring races? Yep. But as a factory (and riders) Yosh has done their homework and are getting the job done. Good for them. The rest of the pack needs to step up. But clean up the class structures and maybe keep the full-factory backed bikes outta 1 or 2 of them. Maybe then the factories will put all their efforts into the Superbike class and we'd get a show again.

WSBK was a total Ducati cup for a number of years. You had Michelin (sorry Alex ) supplying the "good" tires to only a handful of riders and combined with the rules the Ducs ruled the day, until one day the series woke up and realized the "show" was garbage. Bring in the spec Pie's and now you have just about the best, closest racing from a top-level series.

I don't know what the answers to the questions are. Like someone mentioned, F1 did away with TC this year, and we now have potential to have some actual racing again with that series. That would be awesome. Maybe the time will come where MotoGP will need to look at doing the same thing to actually bring racing back (maybe a side benefit is the cost of racing coming down = more teams back on the grid).









Oh and Coyote..........I'll take your bet. Maybe not the 50 clams.....how about a friendly beverage or two at the track? I'll take Stoner to cross the line first.

 

[afmotorsports]

WSBK was a total Ducati cup for a number of years. You had Michelin (sorry Alex ) supplying the "good" tires to only a handful of riders and combined with the rules the Ducs ruled the day, until one day the series woke up and realized the "show" was garbage. Bring in the spec Pie's and now you have just about the best, closest racing from a top-level series.

While I have nothing to do with Michelin's involvement at that level, I will politely tell you that's a heapin' load of crap that's been repeated so many times people assume it's true. No tire manufacturer shows up with a container of "good tires" and a container of "bad tires", but tires are in limited supply given all the different compounds. It happens at the AMA level too. Depending on track conditions and riders, they're trying out several different compounds/constructions during practice and sometimes the "experimental stuff" turns out better than the standard stuff (other times it's the other way around). If there is a limited supply of a certain tire, who would you give it to?? Edwards and Bayliss or someone trying to get into the top 20?? The truth is that the tire that works for someone like Edwards/Bayliss back then probably wouldn't work for the riders going 2-3 seconds per lap slower. If I could even get a hold of a current MotoGP 16.5 slick, I can practically guarantee you that most club racers would hate it because they can't work it hard enough to make it perform (both because the club racer bikes aren't as fast and neither are the riders, so they're not getting enough heat in it) However, if a series is on "spec tires" then you really only need to bring the "standard stuff" and if they don't quite work right, everybody is on the same crap tire... although the top riders STILL win and pull away from the lesser riders. Are you forgetting the gap Bayliss used to put on the rest of the field?? He made everybody else look stupid!

And as far as the racing getting better when they brought in spec tires, it was actually the complete opposite - it was horrible and everybody thought they had ruined WSBK for a couple of years. What made the difference?? They got all the manufacturers back in the series and they attracted quite a few top notch riders (like Bayliss, who actually WON a MotoGP race as a "guest rider" on the Ducati). I find it amusing how many people try to rewrite history and giving "spec tires" credit for the recent success of WSBK, but that's factually incorrect. Look how bitchin' AMA Supersport is and trophies are often divided between Dunlop and Pirelli riders.

Oh and Coyote..........I'll take your bet. Maybe not the 50 clams.....how about a friendly beverage or two at the track? I'll take Stoner to cross the line first.

FAH-KING PU$$Y! I will take "anyone-but-Rossi" for a couple of cold beverages - who wants that bet?? I put the Sete Gibernau curse on that little whiney italian tax-dodging cry-baby!

 

[Seesm]

Sete Gibernau I miss that fucker....

 

[dgrace]

F1 is actually fun to watch again. The qualifying format rocks. The race was insane. Spec ECU's rule - great rule change this year.

dave

 

[turbodogs02]

If there is a limited supply of a certain tire, who would you give it to?? Edwards and Bayliss or someone trying to get into the top 20?? However, if a series is on "spec tires" then you really only need to bring the "standard stuff" and if they don't quite work right, everybody is on the same crap tire... although the top riders STILL win and pull away from the lesser riders.

I find it amusing how many people try to rewrite history and giving "spec tires" credit for the recent success of WSBK, but that's factually incorrect. Look how bitchin' AMA Supersport is and trophies are often divided between Dunlop and Pirelli riders.

Well in a way Alex, you've kinda proven my point. It's not that the tire manufacturers make "good" tires and "bad" tires, it's that the top riders get the limited supply, creme of the development crop tires. Right or wrong that happens in just about every top tier racing series from GP's down to AMA. So with a spec tire, now at least that component is taken out.

But you are correct in that it took a little bit to get the growing pains out of the way. And again, you are correct in the fact that they now have some very big names back in the series putting on a very good show. But those names came back to the series, I feel, in no small part due to the fact that the racing is now more on an even playing surface. Who wants to go and ride for a championship knowing that unless you are on "the" bike and tire combo, you really don't have much of a shot? The bikes are now pretty similar (we'll see how they decide to deal with the new Duc's), the rules are seemingly even, and the tires are the same from P1 to the last spot on the grid.


And I think you are seeing a spillover to the AMA with the re-surgance of Pirelli's involvement in the WSBK and Canadian series. They are getting more and more feedback and development and are finally making inroads into the Dunlop stranglehold on the AMA.


I'm all for competition. I would love to see all the tire manufacturers on the podium routinely throughout the year. Sometimes the organizers go to far with the rulebook to level the field and cause more harm than good.

 

[turbodogs02]

F1 is actually fun to watch again. The qualifying format rocks. The race was insane. Spec ECU's rule - great rule change this year.

dave

Yep!