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World swimming bans transgender women from competing

ST Guy said:
If a person has any cosmetic surgery, then I’m OK with it. But I hope that they have researched the subject very carefully and fully understand the risks. Too often they gloss over the risks.

Coming from the medical industry, I understand the risks better than many of those getting the surgery.
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not meaning to be harsh - but regardless of your personal and professional experience, you fall far short of understanding the surgery better than the physicians performing it. and considering the life altering aspects of the surgeries and treatments in question, medical professionals who take on those patients manage their care (physical, mental and emotional) with particular sensitivity and transparency.

and wrt being ‘okay with it’, this specific subject seems like one you struggle with, and are not okay with. that’s understandable considering the general lack of knowledge much of society has on the subject. but gender dysphoria is very real, whether or not anyone who hasn’t experienced it understands it, or the associated challenges and risks.
 
littlebeast said:
not meaning to be harsh - but regardless of your personal and professional experience, you fall far short of understanding the surgery better than the physicians performing it. and considering the life altering aspects of the surgeries and treatments in question, medical professionals who take on those patients manage their care (physical, mental and emotional) with particular sensitivity and transparency.

and wrt being ‘okay with it’, this specific subject seems like one you struggle with, and are not okay with. that’s understandable considering the general lack of knowledge much of society has on the subject. but gender dysphoria is very real, whether or not anyone who hasn’t experienced it understands it, or the associated challenges and risks.
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I agree 100%. My cousin adopted 2 boys from Thailand when they were 3 and 1. The 3 year old was always a girl in his head, even at that age. He eventually went through all of the operations to truly become a girl. It's been a hard process but he/she was never going to be comfortable in a male body, that was always obvious. His younger brother absolutely hated what his older brother was because of all of the teasing he got at his schools (in Novato).
 
Way too much variety of procedures to really say a whole lot as a singular, but there is some more objective information to work from...

A Review of Psychosocial Outcomes for Patients Seeking Cosmetic Surgery - PMC

The authors reviewed the literature on psychological and psychosocial outcomes for individuals undergoing cosmetic surgery, to address whether elective cosmetic procedures improve psychological well-being and psychosocial functioning and whether ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Outcomes for Specific Procedures​

The outcomes for specific procedures varied to some degree. Overall, mammaplasties were fairly uniformly associated with a good outcome, with a somewhat more mixed picture for facial procedures. Thus, psychological and psychosocial outcomes appear to be most consistently positive for mammaplasties. All studies of women undergoing reduction mammaplasty (six studies; total n = 711) described very high rates of satisfaction with the procedure (86 percent to 97 percent), with reported improvements in psychological health (including enhanced body image and diminished distress) and (where assessed) a decrease in physical symptoms associated with large breasts. For augmentation mammaplasty (eight studies, total n = 769) similarly high levels of overall satisfaction (78 percent to 90 percent) were found, with reports of enhanced self-esteem, social confidence, attractiveness, and satisfaction with body image.

Rhinoplasty procedures showed a somewhat more mixed picture, perhaps reflecting the individual study design. While most of the rhinoplasty studies reported high rates of satisfaction and enhanced social confidence, the study of Edgerton et al.,16 although not exclusively a rhinoplasty study (it included face lifts and facial surgery procedures), found some post-surgical psychological disturbance in 55 percent of the 35 female and 11 male rhinoplasty subjects. Personality attributes were also identified as having an impact on outcomes in this study, with 50 percent of patients being diagnosed with a personality disorder. Knorr,17 in a study that investigated the putative “loss of identity” syndrome after rhinoplasty, concentrated on a group (n = 9) with poor outcomes; subjects reported being “shocked” by their new appearance and subsequently requested further surgical procedures in an effort to regain their former appearance. In a study of personality characteristics of rhinoplasty patients, Wright and Wright18 identified psychosis, neurosis, and narcissism as factors adversely affecting the outcomes for some patients.

For face lift, the early study of Edgerton et al.19 (n = 71) reported high rates of satisfaction and “improved sense of well-being” (86 percent). However, the study was specifically of operations on the “aging face,” and the mean age of the sample was 48 years; of interest is that age under 40 years was a predictor of poor outcome for this group. The later prospective study of Goin and colleagues20 (n = 50; mean patient age, 56 years) found high rates of psychological disturbance postoperatively (54 percent), with transient depression in a third of patients; this study, however, did not follow patients beyond 6 months after the operation, so the longer-term outcomes are unknown.
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Holeshot said:
Pro sports does though!
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Holy shit man. Ya, capitalism and you watching is more important than how society treats other human beings. :facepalm

Let's talk about Unlimited more. Steroids and TRT are dangerous and will increase mortality rates in sports. Ive heard rumblings that amateur sports is dealing with more heart issues/deaths and it's being blamed on all-too-widespread use of PEDs. Now you want to create a competition class where not only is all that incentivized, it's actually encouraged? Encourage your athletes to destroy their bodies for a paycheck? That's called exploitation. It's bad enough that some pro sports at straddling the line of exploitation - NFL with brain injuries or college sports and not paying them. What you are proposing is far worse. Maybe Unlimited is as bad as Bumfights, maybe not. Even with mechanical enhancements, say someone develops a better arm. How about you chop off your arm and replace it for a paycheck - more exploitation.

Your position here of "I wanna watch" wreaks of a similar mindset that is allowing this anti-trans and anti-women crap to continue. Where's your empathy?
 
stangmx13 said:
Holy shit man. Ya, capitalism and you watching is more important than how society treats other human beings. :facepalm

Let's talk about Unlimited more. Steroids and TRT are dangerous and will increase mortality rates in sports. Ive heard rumblings that amateur sports is dealing with more heart issues/deaths and it's being blamed on all-too-widespread use of PEDs. Now you want to create a competition class where not only is all that incentivized, it's actually encouraged? Encourage your athletes to destroy their bodies for a paycheck? That's called exploitation. It's bad enough that some pro sports at straddling the line of exploitation - NFL with brain injuries or college sports and not paying them. What you are proposing is far worse. Maybe Unlimited is as bad as Bumfights, maybe not. Even with mechanical enhancements, say someone develops a better arm. How about you chop off your arm and replace it for a paycheck - more exploitation.

Your position here of "I wanna watch" wreaks of a similar mindset that is allowing this anti-trans and anti-women crap to continue. Where's your empathy?
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:applause
 
There are a lot of aspects that weren't addressed in that response. So many positives to research and design that aren't being pursued at the level they could be. I get the moral and ethical concerns. Those are personal.

Individuals in life and death situations get to experience the most cutting edge capabilities. Expand the pool of participants and more progress will be made.
 
byke said:
Seems like that leaves way too big of a gamut. It would include a man that identifies as a women, but has made no changes beyond appearance.
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Well, the rational solution I have presented is for the social problem at hand. It is fair, reasonable, and solves the conflict in a way that is fair.

As I previously stated, said Trans-Athlete competition category can set it's own definitions for what qualifies fo re-entry. All of this hullaballoo over what represents less than 1% of the population is a waste of everyone's time.
 
Eldritch said:
Well, the rational solution I have presented is for the social problem at hand. It is fair, reasonable, and solves the conflict in a way that is fair.

As I previously stated, said Trans-Athlete competition category can set it's own definitions for what qualifies fo re-entry. All of this hullaballoo over what represents less than 1% of the population is a waste of everyone's time.
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You can shrink that percentage further by flipping from gender to sex, which is also using language that the main opposing forces (us non-participants that apparently care the most) understand a little better.
 
greenmonster said:
I think gender surgery for adults over 18 is fine but don’t do it on kids.
Give them counseling and support as they grow and figure out who they are but don’t chop off body parts.
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Does that happen?

Gender-affirming surgeries rarely performed on transgender youth | Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health

A new Harvard Chan School study found little to no utilization of gender-affirming surgeries by transgender and gender-diverse minors in the U.S.
hsph.harvard.edu

A new study by researchers at Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health found little to no utilization of gender-affirming surgeries by transgender and gender-diverse (TGD) minors in the U.S. The study also found that cisgender minors and adults had substantially higher utilization of analogous gender-affirming surgeries than their TGD counterparts.

The study was published on June 27 in JAMA Network Open. According to the researchers, it is the first quantitative comparison of gender-affirming surgery utilization between cisgender and TGD populations.
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littlebeast said:
not meaning to be harsh - but regardless of your personal and professional experience, you fall far short of understanding the surgery better than the physicians performing it. and considering the life altering aspects of the surgeries and treatments in question, medical professionals who take on those patients manage their care (physical, mental and emotional) with particular sensitivity and transparency.

and wrt being ‘okay with it’, this specific subject seems like one you struggle with, and are not okay with. that’s understandable considering the general lack of knowledge much of society has on the subject. but gender dysphoria is very real, whether or not anyone who hasn’t experienced it understands it, or the associated challenges and risks.
Click to expand...
For the record, I never said I know better than physicians. The group I was referring to is those getting the surgery. When you see the horrors inflicted on people, you have to think WTF?
 
ST Guy said:
For the record, I never said I know better than physicians. The group I was referring to is those getting the surgery. When you see the horrors inflicted on people, you have to think WTF?
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Agreed. WTF, Mickey?!?!

1739493722756.png
 
stangmx13 said:
Holy shit man. Ya, capitalism and you watching is more important than how society treats other human beings. :facepalm

Let's talk about Unlimited more. Steroids and TRT are dangerous and will increase mortality rates in sports. Ive heard rumblings that amateur sports is dealing with more heart issues/deaths and it's being blamed on all-too-widespread use of PEDs. Now you want to create a competition class where not only is all that incentivized, it's actually encouraged? Encourage your athletes to destroy their bodies for a paycheck? That's called exploitation. It's bad enough that some pro sports at straddling the line of exploitation - NFL with brain injuries or college sports and not paying them. What you are proposing is far worse. Maybe Unlimited is as bad as Bumfights, maybe not. Even with mechanical enhancements, say someone develops a better arm. How about you chop off your arm and replace it for a paycheck - more exploitation.

Your position here of "I wanna watch" wreaks of a similar mindset that is allowing this anti-trans and anti-women crap to continue. Where's your empathy?
Click to expand...

Professional sports IS about exploitation for entertainment. Sports is also about competition, not empathy. Empathy comes when individuals/ teams lose. I get being against PED's and cheating. Cheating was never my thing too, but later when you learn that many of those you were competing against were, clearly they felt cheating was worth it. So...at that point, embrace those who want to do so. I mean, we let anyone do any drug they want in open public. Why not allow athletes to do the same and increase their viability, performance and earning power? How many athletes at the top of their game would take PED's if they knew they'd never be caught? We all watched Icarus...we know the answer. What determines winners in endurance sports is body composition. Bostrom's lungs are massive....and his ability is off the charts thanks to the DNA lottery. Those who do not have such advantages are either stuck out of luck (and trapped in their economic situation) or will turn to PEDs. Why not? Not like they're gonna get to the top without them for the most part. I get the PED/ cheating thing, but I never was into it myself. If I needed a paycheck? Who knows... FWIW, capitalism is what makes amateur sports mean something, and I say that with great pain given how professional sports has treated our amateur sports leagues/ clubs.

My comments were partially serious, cause no, I don't think this will ever happen. But I do think more exposure for the para sports would be great entertainment and allowing classes with experimental bionics, etc. would bring a new viewing audience.

I'm not sure how one can hold an anti-trans and anti woman stance at the same time. Doesn't make sense to me.


ST Guy said:
For the record, I never said I know better than physicians. The group I was referring to is those getting the surgery. When you see the horrors inflicted on people, you have to think WTF?
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Meh. It was a "beat up" post you replied to. Forget about it.
 
I don't disagree that those could be spun into gender affirming care if you wanted to. It's a reach past PED's. The mental disconnect between the body is where the ambiguity begins.
 
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