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Build Thread: CB350 Cafe

For the Nissin, the 5/8th is the piston size.

For the brembos, you've got the piston size (16mm) by, I believe, the pivot lever distance, in this case, either 18mm or 20mm. The longer pivot means more mechanical advantage, so for a given amount of travel, you get more force at the pads. I prefer the 18mm to the 20mm, as I felt the 20mm feels overly stiff and hard to modulate. But some people prefer the instant on of the 20s.


I don't think the levers come in 1.8 or 2 centimeter lengths.
 
I don't think the levers come in 1.8 or 2 centimeter lengths.

Pivot lever difference: How far from the pivot point till the lever actuation point. The lever itself is not 2cm long, :laughing

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It's the blue line.

The new ones are cool because they're adjustable with a small dial on the lever. The "RCS" system.
 
I think you're thinking of Julian Farnam. I'm going to begin working for him soon for a new business venture of his in exhance for him teaching me chassis construction :teeth

His last company went by the name A.N.D.

Yes! I remember that frame-builder...what was his name? He had a shop in Livermore, I think. We had his frame on display at SF Moto while I was racing.

If I had an extra few grand lying around I'd have Jay (with the Jaybuilt triple) make me a frame...but who has an extra few grand lying around? Not me.
 

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D'oh! Yeah, that makes much more sense. :laughing

Pivot lever difference: How far from the pivot point till the lever actuation point. The lever itself is not 2cm long, :laughing

brembo.jpg


It's the blue line.

The new ones are cool because they're adjustable with a small dial on the lever. The "RCS" system.
 
Loving the project so far.

I'm scared of running fiberglass tanks! Too many horror stories. And that tail section looks like it might be kind of painful...but I'll try anything, once, heh, heh...

If you're passing on the seat/tank combo. I'd be interested in knowing how much he wants for it.
 
I think you're thinking of Julian Farnam. I'm going to begin working for him soon for a new business venture of his in exhance for him teaching me chassis construction :teeth

His last company went by the name A.N.D.

Yes! That's as close as any EX500 has ever come to pornographic. It's like a Penthouse centerfold of a young Julie Nixon. Or something like that...
 
For the Nissin, the 5/8th is the piston size.

For the brembos, you've got the piston size (16mm) by, I believe, the pivot lever distance, in this case, either 18mm or 20mm. The longer pivot means more mechanical advantage, so for a given amount of travel, you get more force at the pads. I prefer the 18mm to the 20mm, as I felt the 20mm feels overly stiff and hard to modulate. But some people prefer the instant on of the 20s.

Just want to correct this. A SHORTER pivot gives more mechanical advantage, as does a smaller piston diameter. The 20mm lever should have felt firmer and EASIER to modulate. More mechanical advantage makes it easier to flex the system ("soft") and harder to control. Though some people have trouble modulating a very firm lever because it modulates more by pressure than displacement. This is why street bikes don't usually come with braided lines.

With only one pot (= small slave area), you will want a relatively small master piston (small master area). 5/8 = about 16mm and I wouldn't go any bigger than that or you'll have a very stiff lever with not a lot of power.
 
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Just want to correct this. A SHORTER pivot gives more mechanical advantage, as does a smaller piston diameter. The 20mm lever should have felt FIRMER and easier to modulate. More mechanical advantage makes it easier to flex the system ("soft") and harder to control.

With only one pot (= small slave area), you will want a relatively small master piston (small master area). 5/8 = about 16mm and I wouldn't go any bigger than that or you'll have a very stiff lever with not a lot of power.

You posted the same thing I did? :confused

I said the 20mm feels firmer and as a result, more difficult to modulate. I felt that the 20mm was wooden and the 18mm, which had a little more travel in the lever till max braking, was easier to modulate.

I was using the phrase "mechanical advantage" to mean "Amount of piston movement as a ratio of lever movement". The 16x20 has more piston movement for a given amount of lever travel, leading to additional mechanical advantage. The 16x18 has more lever travel for a given amount of piston travel, leading to a decreased amount of braking force for the same amount of pull on the bar. Of course, the MC was still capable of locking the front long before the lever even got close to my fingers, much less the bar, regardless of if it was a 18 or a 20.

Brembo also recommends the 16mm for single calipers and the 19mm for dual calipers.
 
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You posted the same thing I did? :confused

I said the 20mm feels firmer and as a result, more difficult to modulate. I felt that the 20mm was wooden and the 18mm, which had a little more travel in the lever till max braking, was easier to modulate.

I was using the phrase "mechanical advantage" to mean "Amount of piston movement as a ratio of lever movement". The 16x20 has more piston movement for a given amount of lever travel, leading to additional mechanical advantage. The 16x18 has more lever travel for a given amount of piston travel, leading to a decreased amount of braking force for the same amount of pull on the bar. Of course, the MC was still capable of locking the front long before the lever even got close to my fingers, much less the bar, regardless of if it was a 18 or a 20.

Brembo also recommends the 16mm for single calipers and the 19mm for dual calipers.

We're close but you're still stating mechanical advantage backwards. 16x18 has more mechanical advantage than 16x20. 16x18 has more braking force for the same amount of pull on the lever.

The two components of mechanical advantage are calculated as follows:
1) (distance of finger to pivot) / (distance of piston to pivot) ... larger distance of piston to pivot creates LESS mechanical advantage
2) (slave piston area) / (master piston area) ... larger master piston creates LESS mechanical advantage.

Typically a lower mechanical advantage is easier to modulate; however, for someone who feels their brakes via lever displacement, rather than force, the stiffer feel of lower mechanical advantage will be harder to modulate... this is the case with you.

Think of it this way: the reason the 16x18 feels softer is because you are generating more line pressure which flexes the lines more easily.
 
We're close but you're still stating mechanical advantage backwards. 16x18 has more mechanical advantage than 16x20. 16x18 has more braking force for the same amount of pull on the lever.

The two components of mechanical advantage are calculated as follows:
1) (distance of finger to pivot) / (distance of piston to pivot) ... larger distance of piston to pivot creates LESS mechanical advantage
2) (slave piston area) / (master piston area) ... larger master piston creates LESS mechanical advantage.

Typically a lower mechanical advantage is easier to modulate; however, for someone who feels their brakes via lever displacement, rather than force, the stiffer feel of lower mechanical advantage will be harder to modulate... this is the case with you.

Think of it this way: the reason the 16x18 feels softer is because you are generating more line pressure which flexes the lines more easily.

I'll take your word for it on the wording :)

All I know is...20mm == too stiff and 18mm == excellent modulation and feel :)
 
I'm not trying to hijack, but since I'm putting in a bit of work into the CL/CB350 in order to get it more to my liking, I figured I'd post up here rather than create my own build thread.

I think I could use a little electrical expertise at the moment, in case anyone has any time to assist a little lower down.

So I'm dragging the CL/CB 350 K0 out of the back of the garage. I'm focusing on trying to get a hollow center on the bike, which means relocating a lot of the electrics

The bike after a few moments getting the airfilters and side panels off, which is incredible fun on a CL without removing the pipes!
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The beautiful work of art that is the stock battery box in all of it's "10 years of less than perfect storage" glory.
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Ah, that looks a lot better... now what to do with all these pesky electrics? A great source for 350 info has a diagram online... http://www.honda350k.com/CB250_350.jpg
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Here is the selenium rectifier, what are the odds that this little puppy is still working correctly? Probably slim to none, I should see if anyone knows of good (and cheap) potential upgrades
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Turn signal relay, will go the way of the turn signals and find itself in the rubbish bin.
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Delicious little starter motor relay. I'm currently running the SpeedCell battery, which strains to operate the starter motor, and I've usually been bump starting the bike. I'm not sure if I'm ready to shed the weight of the motor/relay so I'll be relocating this piece for now.
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I'm figuring this is the voltage regulator? I'm used to seeing this combined as a regulator/rectifier, so I'm assuming these older separate regulator don't need to be position for heat dissipation?
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That's all I really had time for today, other than taking it out for a spin before the partial dismantling. I'll be looking at creating new mounts and relocating most of the electrics up under the seat for the next step while the air filters are on order.

Thanks Gabe, for letting me toss this post into your build thread, hope you don't mind if I keep adding things here and there!
 
Thanks Gabe, for letting me toss this post into your build thread, hope you don't mind if I keep adding things here and there!

Do I have a choice? Ha!

Hell, the more the merrier.

So I haven't been totally dormant. Here are the latest developments:

Buff Harsh with Todd Henning Racing wants to help out, details TBD, but will probably involve their big-bore kit...is it a 378? Something like that.

I also heard from Glass From the Past: I ordered the seat just after Xmas and then didn't hear a word. Turns out Bret had a bad crash and was out for a month. Bummer! But he seems to be okay, and the seat (with upholstery) will be here tomorrow.

Finally, my pal Big Al is helping me out with frame modifications. Here is the stock frame, awaiting surgery (please excuse the crummy iPhone photography):

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Grinding down the pressed-and-tack-welded edges to ready them for welding:
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Welding! Man, I couldn't look at that light without the welder's glass for more than a minute at a time, and then I kept seeing spots! It sure was rough riding home, especially in the rain. Thank God for Visene!
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Hopefully, a stronger seam:
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Al saw the big open joint between some downtubes and made these braces in a hurry. Not too worry: we'll grind and polish so it doesn't look so Mad Max:

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And now, the world's coolest tool: Plasma Cutter! Sweet.
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Screw you, seat lock!
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It's blurry, but you can see the line cut in the 1/8th-inch sheet metal. It took about 5 seconds to cut this...

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What a grind! Ha!
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Not shown: filling and grinding down some holes in the frame. We're not done, but we should be finished by the end of the week. Hopefully we'll have a lighter, stronger frame.
 
Gabe, were you really looking at the light with your naked eyes?!?! :wtf

Without going into the gory details, that is a BAD idea!
 

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Gabe, were you really looking at the light with your naked eyes?!?! :wtf

Without going into the gory details, that is a BAD idea!

I think that is an urban legend perpetuated by the Welder's Glass industry. How can a light so beautiful possibly hurt you? I couldn't look away. I saw God. And I'm still seeing him, 3 days later. It hurts sometimes, and I can only see out of the sides of my eyes, but it was worth it.

I forgot to mention: the clip-ons from Woodcraft arrived last week. Pretty sweet, huh? Note the inserts, so I can upgrade to bigger forks someday (Charlie says 35mm CB550 front ends don't work and he doesn't know why people say they do, but jeez, the High School bike uses a 35mm front end, so somebody's figured it out!).

Dollar-for-dollar, the Woodcraft CFM stuff is the best deal...rearsets, clipons, and other bits. Inexpensive, strong, well-made, repairable, and made in USA. Good company!
DSCN0803.JPG
 
I think I could use a little electrical expertise at the moment, in case anyone has any time to assist a little lower down.

The charging system on al of the CB and CL Honda's were very crude by todays standards. The alternator or AC generator used two coils for daytime use and when the lights were turned on the other four coils were connected. The voltage regulator was there to prevent overcharging the battery. The system really had no regulation at all it simply went balls-tothe-wall all the time. It worked stock OK. As soon as someone added another draw, extra lights,horn or any other electrical component then the system had too little output. I Cafeyed (new word) an X6 suzuki many years ago. It was really quick for it's day but the trick of the day was to put automoive coils for a hotter spark. That was enough to kill the electircal system which functionally was the same as the Honda 2-4 coil alternator. What I found was a KH400 stator and rotor was the exact same size as the Suzuki stator. The Kawa system was a 3 phase system that had a rectifier regulator system that kept the battery up all the time. No more electrical problems. Now time is the enemy and the availability of a working KH400 electrical system is probably rarer than anything from a Honda. I digress here: At a Kawa dealer show somewhere in the US the introduction on the new models for year started with a picture of the CB 350 Honda (74or75) the crowd started fussing and booing the announcer announced "guys don't fuss Honda sold more of this one bike than Kawasaki sold motorcycles last year" Then they introduced the KZ400 twin. What a POS of a motorcycle. Another tidbit: Honda thought seriously about making a race kit for the 350. I think it was Gordon Jennings that got one and tried using it. While it ran great and went reasonably fast it would shred is cam drive in short order and the valve springs would collapse at about the same time. Honda never let that one out to the public....
 
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Gabe,

if 35mm is really what you want, then choose the same right-side-up forx that today's dirt-trackers use -

[1] FZR600
[2] CBRF3

affordable eBay items, 3-way adjustable with the correct 'look'

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LtDan,

very useful memories, for those taking up the vintage race scene
[& those of us who wrenched on the motos when they were contemporary]

cross-referenced parts FTW !!
 
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Gabe,

if 35mm is really what you want, then choose the same right-side-up forx that today's dirt-trackers use -

[1] FZR600
[2] CBRF3

affordable eBay items, 3-way adjustable with the correct 'look'

Huh! Very clever! But I don't really want that for now...33mm is fine.
 
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