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World swimming bans transgender women from competing

msethhunter said:
WTF exactly do you think the difference is between HRT and gender reassignment surgery? Do try and paint my post as anything it isn’t. You do that garbage a lot.
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One is a prescription medication, the other is a surgical procedure. I know the difference.

I'm not painting your posts as anything other than what they are: misinformed.
 
TylerW said:
One is a prescription medication, the other is a surgical procedure. I know the difference.

I'm not painting your posts as anything other than what they are: misinformed.
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I think you should go back a reread then. Because HRT has no age restrictions, but gender reassignment does. Maybe I misspoke, or maybe you misinterpreted what I said, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that you decided to take HRT and equate it with surgery. That’s the bullshit you are trying to pull.
 
msethhunter said:
There is no law for HRT. Most doctors won’t start until age 16, or when puberty starts. You’re advocating for something that you are misinformed on causing you to mislead people. You should stop.

Did you honestly think I wouldn’t fact check something like this?

“If used in an adolescent, hormone therapy typically begins at age 16. Ideally, treatment starts before the development of secondary sex characteristics so that teens can go through puberty as their identified gender.”

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/feminizing-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385096

The only thing that you have to wait until 16 for is gender reassignment surgery. 16 is still far too young in my opinion for something as big a magnitude as this. If either one of my kids came to me and said “Hey dad…..”, both their mother and I would both say “okay, but this big decision, you’re going to have to wait. We’ll research this together, and when you’re an adult, we’ll do whatever you. It you’re still a child, so it’s not time yet.”
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You are correct that there is no national law, but Tyler is correct that 16 is generally when HRT treatments will usually start. prior to that, trans children will receive puberty blockers to delay puberty until they are very, very sure of the route they want to take. Though, only 1.9% of people who start puberty blockers in order to transition will decide not to transition when they are allowed to, so it's arguable if they really need to delay as much as they are usually required to. We are often talking about 4-6 years on puberty blockers.

Doctors generally wont do a gender affirming surgery, whether top, bottom, facial feminization/masculinization, etc. on people under 18 and people who have not completed their puberty.

I really hope for your sake and the sake of your children that they do not turn out to be trans. The way you promise to treat them almost guarantees they will face depression and suicidal ideation, and are about 40% likely to commit suicide.

There have been very very few long term studies of people transitioning, and WebMD.com sites one, with quotes from a doctor who helps people transition as years on, suicide rates are approx 40% higher.

Kids, who still haven’t figured out life, need not be making these kinds of monumental decisions. These are kids we’re talking about. Woah up a little.
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The rate of trans youths who do not have supportive parents and are denied gender affirming care is about 40-45%, roughly half of all trans children.

Assuming the WebMD article you didn't link is accurate, the suicide rate of trans people who are allowed to transition is about 40% higher than the base teen suicide rate of 7%, so just under 10%.

I'd pick the 10% chance over the 40% chance every time.

WTF exactly do you think the difference is between HRT and gender reassignment surgery? Do try and paint my post as anything it isn’t. You do that garbage a lot.
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HRT treatment is a combination of hormone blockers for either Testosterone or Estrogen (for trans women and trans men, respectively) and estrogen to testosterone treatments.

Gender reassignment surgeries are a couple of things. Top surgery to either enlarge or reduce breast size, facial feminization or masculinization surgery to change facial features. Bottom surgery to create a neo penis or neo vagina. A lot of trans people don't ever do bottom surgery.

It's pretty easy to understand the difference.
 
msethhunter said:
... but that doesn’t take away from the fact that you decided to take HRT and equate it with surgery. That’s the bullshit you are trying to pull.
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I did absolutely nothing of the sort. You're projecting your own misunderstandings onto me.
 
ScarySpikes said:
You are correct that there is no national law, but Tyler is correct that 16 is generally when HRT treatments will usually start. prior to that, trans children will receive puberty blockers to delay puberty until they are very, very sure of the route they want to take. Though, only 1.9% of people who start puberty blockers in order to transition will decide not to transition when they are allowed to, so it's arguable if they really need to delay as much as they are usually required to. We are often talking about 4-6 years on puberty blockers.

Doctors generally wont do a gender affirming surgery, whether top, bottom, facial feminization/masculinization, etc. on people under 18 and people who have not completed their puberty.

I really hope for your sake and the sake of your children that they do not turn out to be trans. The way you promise to treat them almost guarantees they will face depression and suicidal ideation, and are about 40% likely to commit suicide.



The rate of trans youths who do not have supportive parents and are denied gender affirming care is about 40-45%, roughly half of all trans children.

Assuming the WebMD article you didn't link is accurate, the suicide rate of trans people who are allowed to transition is about 40% higher than the base teen suicide rate of 7%, so just under 10%.

I'd pick the 10% chance over the 40% chance every time.



HRT treatment is a combination of hormone blockers for either Testosterone or Estrogen (for trans women and trans men, respectively) and estrogen to testosterone treatments.

Gender reassignment surgeries are a couple of things. Top surgery to either enlarge or reduce breast size, facial feminization or masculinization surgery to change facial features. Bottom surgery to create a neo penis or neo vagina. A lot of trans people don't ever do bottom surgery.

It's pretty easy to understand the difference.
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On my phone, so bear with me. First part, you literally took the words right out of my mouth (post). I even pulled part of the article that nearly verbatim says what you just said about HRT’s and gender reassignment surgery.

The data, regardless of who’s picking it, is incomplete, because it’s study in any kind of meaningful manner is still extremely new. That, in and of itself, is the reason to woah it up. Towit, I have yet to see a doctor who isn’t an activist speak begrudgingly about HRT, gender reassignment surgery, or transitioning in general. What I have seen is doctors who don’t have an axe to grind say “maybe we should take a better look at this before we go full ham on it.l, the data is incomplete and some of it is conflicting.”

Quit looking for affirmation. Especially if you’ve got zero skin (literally and figuratively) in the game.

40% have attempted suicide. The information is freely available, and easy to find. 80+% have thought about it.

https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/what-is-transphobia

With suicide rates being as high as they are, it leads me to think that being Gender Dysphoria is not being treated medically as it should be at the risk of offending people, and at the cost of harming people. It also leads me to think that children taking HRT is not a good answer to the issue, especially with the minuscule impact it has on changing the outcome, taken alongside the amount of people who have transition regret and the suicide rate among those who have that.
 
TylerW said:
That's some shit research. The actual number is closer to 2.4%.

Besides, even for those that do detransition, they took the opportunity to explore their gender identity, which is something that most people never, ever do, and never understand why they're as miserable as they are waking up and in bodies they hate every day of their lives.
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:wtf
 
TylerW said:
I stand corrected that doctors can prescribe HRT before the age of sixteen. However, they rarely do so.
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Given that you present yourself as the expert advocate, this does not add to your probity.
 
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msethhunter said:
On my phone, so bear with me. First part, you literally took the words right out of my mouth (post). I even pulled part of the article that nearly verbatim says what you just said about HRT’s and gender reassignment surgery.

The data, regardless of who’s picking it, is incomplete, because it’s study in any kind of meaningful manner is still extremely new. That, in and of itself, is the reason to woah it up. Towit, I have yet to see a doctor who isn’t an activist speak begrudgingly about HRT, gender reassignment surgery, or transitioning in general. What I have seen is doctors who don’t have an axe to grind say “maybe we should take a better look at this before we go full ham on it.l, the data is incomplete and some of it is conflicting.”

Quit looking for affirmation. Especially if you’ve got zero skin (literally and figuratively) in the game.

40% have attempted suicide. The information is freely available, and easy to find. 80+% have thought about it.

https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/what-is-transphobia

With suicide rates being as high as they are, it leads me to think that being Gender Dysphoria is not being treated medically as it should be at the risk of offending people, and at the cost of harming people. It also leads me to think that children taking HRT is not a good answer to the issue, especially with the minuscule impact it has on changing the outcome, taken alongside the amount of people who have transition regret and the suicide rate among those who have that.
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Since you asked about my skin in the game. I have trans family members, I have dated trans people, I have many trans friends. I have 'skin in the game' because people I care about are targets of transphobia, and I've seen the harm it does.

The data on trans people in sports is incomplete, the data on the process of transitioning is far, far more developed.

First, looking at the medications. The first drug trans children tend to go on are puberty blockers, they were FDA approved in 1993, are well researched, have far fewer major side effects and are much safer than Adderall. They are used to treat a variety of issues, gender dysphoria is just one of them, and are safe if taken as prescribed.

Then we get to the artificial hormones. Testosterone first became available as a medication in 1937. Estrogen as a medication first became available in 1933. So, they have been very extensively studied. They are near exact replacements for the respective natural hormones. Very well studied, their potential side effects are well understood. They are safe taken as prescribed.

Gender specific hormone blockers. Androgen blockers for trans women, one early one was made available in 1959. They are used to treat a variety of things, very well studied, safe taken as prescribed. For trans men, MPA, also created in 1959, also used to treat a variety of issues, well researched, and safe used as prescribed.

That's not an exhaustive list, but you get the idea, the drugs are well researched and quite safe to use as prescribed by the doctor. New and better versions are coming out all the time, just as they are with other drugs, but they go through the same extensive testing for FDA approval as all other drugs.

As to trans people themselves. trans people have been around forever. We literally have found ancient burial sites of people who were male in terms of biology, but were buried, respectfully, as women. Numerous other societies have had more genders as their standards than the 2 that have been standard here for a few centuries. So, no, that's not a new thing either.

The only thing that is new is that trans people are no longer being shoved down into the shadows as much. People are starting to feel more comfortable living as they want on their terms, instead of on yours.

The increased suicide rates, when trans people are able to get the medical care and immediate family support, pretty well match the rates for gay or lesbian people. We actually have a pretty good idea what the cause is. Guess what, it's the bigotry. The more open and accepting an area, the lower the suicide rate for all LGBTQ people.

As to 'what about doing some other treatment.' What it sounds like you are asking for is for a medical treatment to rewrite trans people's brains in a way that makes you more comfortable. Not only is that not remotely possible with our current medical abilities, the ethical issues with that are massive. The reason that trans people have mental health issues with depression and suicidal ideation is because so much of our current society treats them as lesser, literally as subhuman. There is a reason that having even one close person who is supportive massively helps trans people's mental health, and there is a reason being able to get the care they need also massively helps with their mental health. Generally, the less bigoted a society is, the better the outcomes for everyone.
 
afm199 said:
Given that you present yourself as the expert advocate, this does not add to your probity.
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It's a subject I care a lot about. Connor seems to have a much deeper body of knowledge on the subject. When I'm wrong, I owe up to it.

Anyone trying to assassinate my character over it? Get a life. :laughing
 
TylerW said:
It's a subject I care a lot about. Connor seems to have a much deeper body of knowledge on the subject. When I'm wrong, I owe up to it.

Anyone trying to assassinate my character over it? Get a life. :laughing
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Tyler, I respect your and Conner's passion, you both clearly put a lot of energy into what you passionately believe. I also respect that you can admit when you've made a mistake.

But, at the same time, you both need to acknowledge that there are people on here who have put as much time into researching some subjects or may be far more knowledgeable about some things than large amounts of research could overcome. We should be always arguing the merits of our stance rather than trying to win or put others opinions down. It isn't always the case that one side is right and the other wrong, often both sides of the argument have merit and acknowledging that merit keeps things more on track instead of it being a slog with trying to wear the other side down.

The passion is great, but having a strong belief and wanting an outcome favorable to what you wish doesn't always make it the correct outcome.
 
Climber said:
Tyler, I respect your and Conner's passion, you both clearly put a lot of energy into what you passionately believe. I also respect that you can admit when you've made a mistake.

But, at the same time, you both need to acknowledge that there are people on here who have put as much time into researching some subjects or may be far more knowledgeable about some things than large amounts of research could overcome. We should be always arguing the merits of our stance rather than trying to win or put others opinions down. It isn't always the case that one side is right and the other wrong, often both sides of the argument have merit and acknowledging that merit keeps things more on track instead of it being a slog with trying to wear the other side down.

The passion is great, but having a strong belief and wanting an outcome favorable to what you wish doesn't always make it the correct outcome.
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No one here has done any genuine research. Research is exhaustively performed and often peer-reviewed. Most folks just look hard enough to confirm their own biases. I'm including myself in that statement.

I've posted it many times here, and I'll do it again. There's a fantastic set of episodes of the Science Vs. podcast on this very subject. It is well researched and exhaustively cited.

The Science Of Being Transgender:
https://gimletmedia.com/shows/science-vs/j4hl23

Trans Kids: The Misinformation Battle
https://gimletmedia.com/shows/science-vs/2ohxk2a

I recommend these episodes to anyone who wants to approach this subject with genuine curiosity. The latter episode does have some discussion about Transgender athletes in sports, but nothing conclusive is determined, rather, the evidence they have observed was enough to suggest that they don't have enough evidence to properly determine whether or not Trans athletes have an advantage over Cis athletes.

If you're curious about the citations, they're in each of the episode's respective transcripts.
 
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It's less harmful for people, with medical and psych. counseling at a young age, to be allowed to explore avenues of transitioning. Full stop.

Denying people access to this is barbaric, anti-egalitarian, and infringes on bodily autonomy. And it looks like the people who do argue against it are doing so using dogmatic framework and not utilitarian ones.
 
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Karbon said:
It's less harmful for people, with medical and psych. counseling at a young age, to be allowed to explore avenues of transitioning. Full stop.

Denying people access to this is barbaric, anti-egalitarian, and infringes on bodily autonomy. And it looks like the people who do argue against it are doing so using dogmatic framework and not utilitarian ones.
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That's true, as in the other thread, it's being driven by religions and they're only getting started, I expect to see more Rights getting taken away within the next year.
 
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