World swimming bans transgender women from competing

[Dubbington]

I stand with trans rights and the right to self identify.

I believe what we are faced with is the changing times against centuries of male/female gender binary.

Sports from what i know has always been separated by male and female. Exception mix gender sports/teams.

So yes a male swimmer may win in a swimming match, but maybe not a tennis match. A female may win an archery match, but may not a wrestling match.

Fair, unfair idk. but least we will bring to attention the important of Trans rights, self identification. and maybe just maybe redefine how we look at Gender in Society for the good. Be free not rigged.

So i say give all the competitors on the World swimming team a medal, Money award, and let 1st finisher be a male or female.

What might be a little food for thought that puzzles me is Why Male/female/self identify folk are playing into the existing world of gender binary. I hope the underlying motive is to reshape the status quo, not reinforce a male/female world.

How about Competition in Society/Culture. Its so gender focus when it comes to the physical body. How about competition be about other attributes, like a chess game for example. Don't chew me out about the origins of chess. You get what I mean. Im all for the development of New games that bring all competitors insights.

Isn’t the idea behind classes in sports to level the playing field? Similar to nascar in that all the cars are supposed to be the same and leave it to the skill of the driver.

Classes by gender have been created to level the playing field especially in sports where men due to strength will have a competitive advantage. It’s really that simple. That’s why there are two divisions in most sports. You want a transgender woman (once a man) playing on a womens softball team? Does that seem remotely fair to naturally born women? Suddenly a pitcher throwing 10-20mph faster than ever before or a better hitting home runs every at bat?

I think how the rule is written so good, the athlete must have complete their transition before their 12th birthday I think it says.

I think instead of fitting transgender in a box not defined to them, why not crate another box/category? If you don’t, competitive women sports is going to suffer.

 

[ScarySpikes]

Isn’t the idea behind classes in sports to level the playing field? Similar to nascar in that all the cars are supposed to be the same and leave it to the skill of the driver.

Classes by gender have been created to level the playing field especially in sports where men due to strength will have a competitive advantage. It’s really that simple. That’s why there are two divisions in most sports. You want a transgender woman (once a man) playing on a womens softball team? Does that seem remotely fair to naturally born women? Suddenly a pitcher throwing 10-20mph faster than ever before or a better hitting home runs every at bat?

I think how the rule is written so good, the athlete must have complete their transition before their 12th birthday I think it says.

I think instead of fitting transgender in a box not defined to them, why not crate another box/category? If you don’t, competitive women sports is going to suffer.

The problem is that you are assuming a lot of things to reach the conclusion you have, and there's not really a good reason to make the assumptions.

You are assuming that a trans woman will perform on par with a cis man. There is a lot of evidence that says that's not true. The studies that have looked into this show that trans women who have been on HRT for enough time either have no performance advantage over cis women, or the advantage is minor, and still puts them within the performance range of cis women. So, it's not throwing pitches 10-20 MPH faster, it's throwing pitches 1-2 MPH faster than the average pitcher in the league, when the fastest cis pitcher is 10MPH faster than that average pitcher.

You are assuming that starting transition (specifically, hormone blockers) at 12 is a reasonable time that won't lead to a lot of trans women never having the opportunity to compete. The reality is, in a lot of countries, and many states in the US, the treatments we are talking about are being banned for children, some states in the US are trying to push the age to as late as the mid 20s.

You are assuming that there are enough people to go into this third box to have meaningful competition. That's not remotely true. If you were to track the number of trans people in competitive sports, by sport, you would get an average of less than one athlete per sport.

You are assuming that the trans athletes will cause competitive women's sports to suffer. A lot of competitive sports have allowed trans people to compete as their chosen gender, and have not seen negative effects.

You are assuming that bans like this, and creating that third category, won't hurt women's sports. However, that's not necessarily true either. Big sports events, teams, and all of that are very expensive. If you do make trans athlete categories, the money supporting them has to come from somewhere. Getting enough funding for women's sports is already a massive issue. In the NCAA, there are almost as many women competitors as men, however women's teams receive about half the funding that men's teams do. In addition, It's a fair bet that the funding for that third category is going to come from already very underfunded women's sports, not the men's sports.

 

[littlebeast]

I stand with trans rights and the right to self identify.

I believe what we are faced with is the changing times against centuries of male/female gender binary.

Sports from what i know has always been separated by male and female. Exception mix gender sports/teams.

So yes a male swimmer may win in a swimming match, but maybe not a tennis match. A female may win an archery match, but may not a wrestling match.

Fair, unfair idk. but least we will bring to attention the important of Trans rights, self identification. and maybe just maybe redefine how we look at Gender in Society for the good. Be free not rigged.

So i say give all the competitors on the World swimming team a medal, Money award, and let 1st finisher be a male or female.

What might be a little food for thought that puzzles me is Why Male/female/self identify folk are playing into the existing world of gender binary. I hope the underlying motive is to reshape the status quo, not reinforce a male/female world.

How about Competition in Society/Culture. Its so gender focus when it comes to the physical body. How about competition be about other attributes, like a chess game for example. Don't chew me out about the origins of chess. You get what I mean. Im all for the development of New games that bring all competitors insights.

can’t claim to fully understand your point - but nevertheless - love this post. especially your comment about reshaping the status quo. IMO - perfect choice of verb. society (and we) are evolving - the definition of that being ‘from a simple to a more complex form’. in any event - thanks for your perspective.

This thread has been incredibly helpful in my own personal development.

As far as sports: if gender is left out as a consideration for classes of competition, there will be 1 elite competition and it will be, almost entirely, biological males.

While there may be examples/sports of non biological males being competitive, the idea of "sport" is pervasive enough that similar guidelines are accepted across the variety of sports.

In the pursuit of inclusiveness, classes have formed. A lot of this has been established with less information/compassion than we have now.

To the specific topic of this thread, I don't believe the swimming federation has made a mistake. There isn't 1 right answer. There is no way to appease 100% of the people. It's a very difficult time for sports.

love this post also, and the introspection. although i would take minor issue with ‘appease’. this is uncharted territory that everyone is trying to sort out. hopefully the goal is not to pacify resistance / ignorance (not meant as a pejorative), but rather to provide some guidance to athletes in advance of a more evolved / fact based position.

have been told more times than i could possibly count that this or that was impossible. in my personal experience - the only difference between ‘impossible’ and ‘possible’ is time, effort and attention.

 

[afm199]

My favorite athlete today is Kayla Yaakov. She just turned 15 and races pro AMA in the Junior Cup, where she's a serious threat to the top riders, usually finishing on the podium and capable of winning on any given today. At most races she's racing at the front for the win. She will go on to win in other classes.

 

[Climber]

My favorite athlete today is Kayla Yaakov. She just turned 15 and races pro AMA in the Junior Cup, where she's a serious threat to the top riders, usually finishing on the podium and capable of winning on any given today. At most races she's racing at the front for the win. She will go on to win in other classes.

Just think of the long list of guys butt-hurt over getting beat by this girl.

Good for her!

 

[msethhunter]

The problem is that you are assuming a lot of things to reach the conclusion you have, and there's not really a good reason to make the assumptions.

You are assuming that a trans woman will perform on par with a cis man. There is a lot of evidence that says that's not true. The studies that have looked into this show that trans women who have been on HRT for enough time either have no performance advantage over cis women, or the advantage is minor, and still puts them within the performance range of cis women. So, it's not throwing pitches 10-20 MPH faster, it's throwing pitches 1-2 MPH faster than the average pitcher in the league, when the fastest cis pitcher is 10MPH faster than that average pitcher.

You are assuming that starting transition (specifically, hormone blockers) at 12 is a reasonable time that won't lead to a lot of trans women never having the opportunity to compete. The reality is, in a lot of countries, and many states in the US, the treatments we are talking about are being banned for children, some states in the US are trying to push the age to as late as the mid 20s.

You are assuming that there are enough people to go into this third box to have meaningful competition. That's not remotely true. If you were to track the number of trans people in competitive sports, by sport, you would get an average of less than one athlete per sport.

You are assuming that the trans athletes will cause competitive women's sports to suffer. A lot of competitive sports have allowed trans people to compete as their chosen gender, and have not seen negative effects.

You are assuming that bans like this, and creating that third category, won't hurt women's sports. However, that's not necessarily true either. Big sports events, teams, and all of that are very expensive. If you do make trans athlete categories, the money supporting them has to come from somewhere. Getting enough funding for women's sports is already a massive issue. In the NCAA, there are almost as many women competitors as men, however women's teams receive about half the funding that men's teams do. In addition, It's a fair bet that the funding for that third category is going to come from already very underfunded women's sports, not the men's sports.

A child, even with a parents consent, should never be allowed to transition. Period, end of discussion. I had no clue who I really was until I was until in my mid 20’s, the large majority of people don’t. There’s some research that says roughly 1/4 of people regret it and want to detransition, and wished they’d been properly informed before they did. Most of them who regret it having done it when they were teens.

 

[Karbon]

Most transition isn't, "just with parental consent". It's not like going going with your kids watch an R rated movie in the theater. When properly done, it takes years and is gatekept behind physicians and psychological counseling.

I know of the study you talk about. It's mega flawed. The regret that some people experience is due to lack of peer and community support and medical barriers (cost). I'd rather people regret their choices than prevent people having a choice to begin with and have them suffer their entire lives. The latter is the more free choice.

This clip skips to the detransitioning. Overall though, great discussion about it if anyone actually gives a fuck (which is suspect people don't). 1.5x for the quick hit.
[youtube]fK0YPY1tjJQ[/youtube]

 

[TylerW]

There’s some research that says roughly 1/4 of people regret it and want to detransition, and wished they’d been properly informed before they did. Most of them who regret it having done it when they were teens.

That's some shit research. The actual number is closer to 2.4%.

Besides, even for those that do detransition, they took the opportunity to explore their gender identity, which is something that most people never, ever do, and never understand why they're as miserable as they are waking up and in bodies they hate every day of their lives.

 

[msethhunter]

Most transition isn't, "just with parental consent". It's not like going going with your kids watch an R rated movie in the theater. When properly done, it takes years and is gatekept behind physicians and psychological counseling.

I know of the study you talk about. It's mega flawed. The regret that some people experience is due to lack of peer and community support and medical barriers (cost). I'd rather people regret their choices than prevent people having a choice to begin with and have them suffer their entire lives. The latter is the more free choice.

This clip skips to the detransitioning. Overall though, great discussion about it if anyone actually gives a fuck (which is suspect people don't). 1.5x for the quick hit.
[youtube]fK0YPY1tjJQ[/youtube]

So we’re going to completely rewrite sports rules for fractions of percentages of trans athletes, but (and I’ll cut you some slack here) 10% of trans people regret their transition and want to go back but can’t, and that’s okay to let a twelve year old who hasn’t even figure out their own life yet do it? You don’t see the flawed logic there?

 

[msethhunter]

That's some shit research. The actual number is closer to 2.4%.

Besides, even for those that do detransition, they took the opportunity to explore their gender identity, which is something that most people never, ever do, and never understand why they're as miserable as they are waking up and in bodies they hate every day of their lives.

That’s some bullshit too. How about this. It’s not 25%, and it’s not 2.4%, it’s somewhere in the middle, and likely shouldn’t be done…..WITH A FUCKEN KID.

 

[byke]

Definitely agree when it comes to medication, but you can only fight a teenager so much on anything else. Part of why they're afforded more rights in legal settings, because they're approaching adulthood and they get to a point where trying to impose your will onto them becomes an insanely destructive exercise in futility very fast.

 

[TylerW]

That’s some bullshit too. How about this. It’s not 25%, and it’s not 2.4%, it’s somewhere in the middle, and likely shouldn’t be done…..WITH A FUCKEN KID.

Most transgender people I know knew their gender from a very early age. Children in this country do not have access any permeant transitioning treatment until the age of sixteen. There's no harm in letting them experiment with changing their name and style of dress for a few years.

Many transgender children who are not allowed to transition commit suicide. That's extremely permeant and kids can do that at any age.

 

[msethhunter]

Most transgender people I know knew their gender from a very early age. Children in this country do not have access any permeant transitioning treatment until the age of sixteen. There's no harm in letting them experiment with changing their name and style of dress for a few years.

Many transgender children who are not allowed to transition commit suicide. That's extremely permeant and kids can do that at any age.

If they want to dress and live as whatever sex they want, by all means. Have at it. But HRT is allowed at any age. As for your straw man about suicidal tendencies, it’s at a rate far far higher in the trans community regardless of whether or not someone has transitioned.

I’ve been told numerous times, by numerous people, when discussing woman’s issues that because I’m not one, that I’m not allowed to have an opinion.

 

[TylerW]

If they want to dress and live as whatever sex they want, by all means. Have at it. But HRT is allowed at any age. As for your straw man about suicidal tendencies, it’s at a rate far far higher in the trans community regardless of whether or not someone has transitioned.

I’ve been told numerous times, by numerous people, when discussing woman’s issues that because I’m not one, that I’m not allowed to have an opinion.

You're allowed to have an opinion, but you should be discouraged from propagating false information. You are propagating false information.

Children in this country cannot be prescribed HRT until 16 years of age. Period. Children can be prescribed puberty blockers before that. Puberty blockers have no permeant effects other than delaying puberty.

 

[Climber]

I’ve been told numerous times, by numerous people, when discussing woman’s issues that because I’m not one, that I’m not allowed to have an opinion.

I think what they really mean is that you can have an opinion, but you don't have a right to dictate what they decide to do with their bodies.

Unfortunately, this has become a far, far more inflamable issue with people choosing to do exactly that.

 

[ScarySpikes]

That’s some bullshit too. How about this. It’s not 25%, and it’s not 2.4%, it’s somewhere in the middle, and likely shouldn’t be done…..WITH A FUCKEN KID.

I'm pretty sure I know the study you got that 25% number from. It didn't look at trans people, it looked at anyone who was referred to a gender clinic for displaying gender nonconforming behavior. The whole point of these clinics, and the years of observation and tests that children go through to find out if they should go though gender affirming care, is to make sure that kids aren't getting into it without us being pretty sure that they are trans. When we look at actually starting treatment. about 1.9% of children who start hormone blockers will decide not to go on to HRT treatment (transitioning) and once people have transitioned, between 2 and 3% express regret for transitioning. Not all of those people detransition, and the majority cite as their reason for regretting transitioning the societal pressure (basically, facing bigotry)

Most transition isn't, "just with parental consent". It's not like going going with your kids watch an R rated movie in the theater. When properly done, it takes years and is gatekept behind physicians and psychological counseling.

I know of the study you talk about. It's mega flawed. The regret that some people experience is due to lack of peer and community support and medical barriers (cost). I'd rather people regret their choices than prevent people having a choice to begin with and have them suffer their entire lives. The latter is the more free choice.

This clip skips to the detransitioning. Overall though, great discussion about it if anyone actually gives a fuck (which is suspect people don't). 1.5x for the quick hit.
[youtube]fK0YPY1tjJQ[/youtube]

This is a good debate.

If they want to dress and live as whatever sex they want, by all means. Have at it. But HRT is allowed at any age. As for your straw man about suicidal tendencies, it’s at a rate far far higher in the trans community regardless of whether or not someone has transitioned.

I’ve been told numerous times, by numerous people, when discussing woman’s issues that because I’m not one, that I’m not allowed to have an opinion.

Here is an article discussing a recent study on the suicide and depression rate.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-...uth-cut-rates-of-depression-suicidal-thoughts

The study participants were patients at the Seattle Children's Gender Clinic. About 60% were transgender males (assigned female at birth); about a quarter were transgender female (assigned male at birth); and 10% were binary, or gender-fluid. Nearly two-thirds were white.

At the study's launch between 2017 and 2018, close to 60% of the participants said they were struggling with depression. About half reported feeling anxious, and more than four in 10 said they had contemplated harming themselves or taking their own life.

Prior to the investigation, only seven had been treated with either puberty blockers or hormones. But by the end of the year-long study period, 66% ended up receiving one or both.

The majority of participants completed mental health surveys three months, six months and one year following study enrollment.

In teens who did not undergo hormone or puberty blocking treatment, the risks for depression and suicidal thoughts were found to have doubled or even tripled at the three-month and six-month marks, Tordoff and her colleagues reported in the Feb. 25 issue of JAMA Network Open.

By contrast, those who had received treatment reaped a significant mental health dividend. While no impact was seen on anxiety levels, kids treated with hormones and/or puberty blockers saw dramatic drops in both depression and suicide risk.

"The results of this new study are in line with several past studies that have linked gender-affirming medical care to improved mental health outcomes for transgender youth," noted Dr. Jack Turban. He is chief fellow of child and adolescent psychiatry at the Stanford University School of Medicine and co-author of an accompanying editorial.

"This study once again reaffirms that efforts to ban gender-affirming care for transgender and gender diverse youth are dangerous and will lead to adverse mental health outcomes," Turban added.

Depression and suicidal ideation are a big problem among trans youths. The 2 things that consistently show they dramatically drop the rate of suicidal ideation and depression are access to gender affirming care, and having support for their identity among family and friends.

 

[msethhunter]

You're allowed to have an opinion, but you should be discouraged from propagating false information. You are propagating false information.

Children in this country cannot be prescribed HRT until 16 years of age. Period. Children can be prescribed puberty blockers before that. Puberty blockers have no permeant effects other than delaying puberty.

There is no law for HRT. Most doctors won’t start until age 16, or when puberty starts. You’re advocating for something that you are misinformed on causing you to mislead people. You should stop.

Did you honestly think I wouldn’t fact check something like this?

“If used in an adolescent, hormone therapy typically begins at age 16. Ideally, treatment starts before the development of secondary sex characteristics so that teens can go through puberty as their identified gender.”

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/feminizing-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385096

The only thing that you have to wait until 16 for is gender reassignment surgery. 16 is still far too young in my opinion for something as big a magnitude as this. If either one of my kids came to me and said “Hey dad…..”, both their mother and I would both say “okay, but this big decision, you’re going to have to wait. We’ll research this together, and when you’re an adult, we’ll do whatever you. It you’re still a child, so it’s not time yet.”

 

[TylerW]

There is no law for HRT. Most doctors won’t start until age 16, or when puberty starts. You’re advocating for something that you are misinformed on causing you to mislead people. You should stop.

Did you honestly think I wouldn’t fact check something like this?

“If used in an adolescent, hormone therapy typically begins at age 16. Ideally, treatment starts before the development of secondary sex characteristics so that teens can go through puberty as their identified gender.”

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/feminizing-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385096

The only thing that you have to wait until 16 for is gender reassignment surgery. 16 is still far too young in my opinion for something as big a magnitude as this. If either one of my kids came to me and said “Hey dad…..”, both their mother and I would both say “okay, but this big decision, you’re going to have to wait. We’ll research this together, and when you’re an adult, we’ll do whatever you. It you’re still a child, so it’s not time yet.”

You're still doing it. No one is performing gender affirming surgery on minors - unless its the doctors surgically "assigning" genders to intersex infants with ambiguous genitals - which often has disastrous results.

 

[msethhunter]

I'm pretty sure I know the study you got that 25% number from. It didn't look at trans people, it looked at anyone who was referred to a gender clinic for displaying gender nonconforming behavior. The whole point of these clinics, and the years of observation and tests that children go through to find out if they should go though gender affirming care, is to make sure that kids aren't getting into it without us being pretty sure that they are trans. When we look at actually starting treatment. about 1.9% of children who start hormone blockers will decide not to go on to HRT treatment (transitioning) and once people have transitioned, between 2 and 3% express regret for transitioning. Not all of those people detransition, and the majority cite as their reason for regretting transitioning the societal pressure (basically, facing bigotry)



This is a good debate.



Here is an article discussing a recent study on the suicide and depression rate.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-...uth-cut-rates-of-depression-suicidal-thoughts



Depression and suicidal ideation are a big problem among trans youths. The 2 things that consistently show they dramatically drop the rate of suicidal ideation and depression are access to gender affirming care, and having support for their identity among family and friends.

There have been very very few long term studies of people transitioning, and WebMD.com sites one, with quotes from a doctor who helps people transition as years on, suicide rates are approx 40% higher.

Kids, who still haven’t figured out life, need not be making these kinds of monumental decisions. These are kids we’re talking about. Woah up a little.

 

[msethhunter]

You're still doing it. No one is performing gender affirming surgery on minors - unless its the doctors surgically "assigning" genders to intersex infants with ambiguous genitals - which often has disastrous results.

WTF exactly do you think the difference is between HRT and gender reassignment surgery? Do try and paint my post as anything it isn’t. You do that garbage a lot.