World swimming bans transgender women from competing

[msethhunter]

I've linked Lia Thomas's actual swimming record multiple times. The idea that she was a middling 400+ ranked swimmer prior to transitioning and the best swimmer in the NCAA after is a lie, prior to starting HRT, she was one of the best swimmers nationally. It's only when she started on HRT, but continued competing in the men's division, that her rank dropped, which is an obvious outcome to anyone who has seen someone go through HRT treatment. When she started competing in the women's division, she was competitive, but not the best. You can look up the record, and cross check when she started HRT which is public knowledge. Those are the facts.


Anyway, if you want to bring up random anecdotes, a cis female friend of mine is 6 ft 2, she is fit even without working too hard at it, but when she does decide to get into a sport she can get extremely fit very quickly. A trans woman friend of mine is about 5 ft 8, and can't put on muscle for the life of her. A cis male friend of mine is about 5 ft 4, and he is a bit scrawny.
Guess who is the strongest, the fastest runner, and the best basketball player.

Hey that’s awesome. You know which test your 6’2” friend passed to play women’s sports? The chromosome test. Ever heard of them? It’s an essential part to being a biological….ah fuck it. You’re a lost cause.

 

[Climber]

Anecdotal statements are facts, nor are single examples in proving a point of other groups or even other individuals.

Not sure what you thought you were proving.

 

[afm199]

I've linked Lia Thomas's , and the best basketball player.

Gotcha, so you're saying biological male with magic juice=biological female and I'm saying nonsense.

 

[Eldritch]

I've linked Lia Thomas's actual swimming record multiple times. The idea that she was a middling 400+ ranked swimmer prior to transitioning and the best swimmer in the NCAA after is a lie, prior to starting HRT, she was one of the best swimmers nationally. It's only when she started on HRT, but continued competing in the men's division, that her rank dropped, which is an obvious outcome to anyone who has seen someone go through HRT treatment. When she started competing in the women's division, she was competitive, but not the best. You can look up the record, and cross check when she started HRT which is public knowledge. Those are the facts.


Anyway, if you want to bring up random anecdotes, a cis female friend of mine is 6 ft 2, she is fit even without working too hard at it, but when she does decide to get into a sport she can get extremely fit very quickly. A trans woman friend of mine is about 5 ft 8, and can't put on muscle for the life of her. A cis male friend of mine is about 5 ft 4, and he is a bit scrawny.
Guess who is the strongest, the fastest runner, and the best basketball player.

Please continue to explain more about the 74" cisfem?

 

[ScarySpikes]

Anecdotal statements are facts, nor are single examples in proving a point of other groups or even other individuals.

Not sure what you thought you were proving.

The facts I was referring to is Lia Thomas's actual swimming record. Citing her performance on the men's team while on HRT and comparing it to her performance on the women's team is a really dumb comparison. You seemed to have stopped trying to make that claim after the second time of being shown her actual record, but several others here didn't seem to take the hint.

On what I was proving with the anecdote, look at Ernie's comment I was responding to. It's very easy to provide real or imagined anecdotes, but they don't prove anything one way or the other. It seems like we actually agree on that.

 

[sidewazzz]

I've linked Lia Thomas's actual swimming record multiple times. The idea that she was a middling 400+ ranked swimmer prior to transitioning and the best swimmer in the NCAA after is a lie, prior to starting HRT, he was one of the best swimmers nationally. It's only when she started on HRT, but continued competing in the men's division, that her rank dropped, which is an obvious outcome to anyone who has seen someone go through HRT treatment. When she started competing in the women's division, she was competitive, but not the best. You can look up the record, and cross check when she started HRT which is public knowledge. Those are the facts.


Anyway, if you want to bring up random anecdotes, a cis female friend of mine is 6 ft 2, she is fit even without working too hard at it, but when she does decide to get into a sport she can get extremely fit very quickly. A trans woman friend of mine is about 5 ft 8, and can't put on muscle for the life of her. A cis male friend of mine is about 5 ft 4, and he is a bit scrawny.
Guess who is the strongest, the fastest runner, and the best basketball player.

So wait let me get this straight... You agree he/she was a top swimmer in men's at one point.

you agree he/she dropped in men's ranking after starting treatment.

65th as a matter of fact in men's 500 & 500 in the 200.... 65th is bad enough.... could you image standing in a line and you're number 65? You're not even close to being #1

But a year later he/she is now winning NCAA title in the women's category and is a favorite to win it all.... You're saying he/she doesn't hold an advantage?

Going from 65th to 1st in the 500 is a HUGE leap
Going from 500th to 5th in the 200 is insane
Going from 32nd to 8th in the 1650 is incredible

Winning NCAA ship after your race times fall off a cliff only has one logical explanation...And it's not because this person trained harder.


*N.C.A.A. championship in the 500-yard freestyle
*Thomas, 22, came in first in the 500-, 200- and 100-yard freestyle races, setting pool and Ivy League records.
*ranked 554 in the 200 freestyle, 65 in the 500 freestyle, and 32 in the 1650 freestyle.
*when competing in the women's team, 5 in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eight in the 1650 freestyle

So you are wrong about me telling lies.... I was wrong though his/her ranking in men's at the end was not 400+ it was 500+

 

[ScarySpikes]

Please continue to explain more about the 74" cisfem?

lawyer now, married to a physicist working for Intel, living in Oregon, and the last we talked a couple of weeks ago, she was planning to make absolutely, 100% sure she could never have children by removing all the plumbing down there.

 

[Eldritch]

lawyer now, married to a physicist working for Intel, living in Oregon, and the last we talked a couple of weeks ago, she was planning to make absolutely, 100% sure she could never have children by removing all the plumbing down there.

So, like married happily or...?

 

[ScarySpikes]

So wait let me get this straight... You agree he/she was a top swimmer in men's at one point.

you agree he/she dropped in men's ranking after starting treatment.

65th as a matter of fact in men's 500 & 500 in the 200.... 65th is bad enough.... could you image standing in a line and you're number 65? You're not even close to being #1

But a year later he/she is now winning NCAA title in the women's category and is a favorite to win it all.... You're saying he/she doesn't hold an advantage?

Going from 65th to 1st in the 500 is a HUGE leap
Going from 500th to 5th in the 200 is insane
Going from 32nd to 8th in the 1650 is incredible

Winning NCAA ship after your race times fall off a cliff only has one logical explanation...And it's not because this person trained harder.


*N.C.A.A. championship in the 500-yard freestyle
*Thomas, 22, came in first in the 500-, 200- and 100-yard freestyle races, setting pool and Ivy League records.
*ranked 554 in the 200 freestyle, 65 in the 500 freestyle, and 32 in the 1650 freestyle.
*when competing in the women's team, 5 in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eight in the 1650 freestyle

So you are wrong about me telling lies.... I was wrong though his/her ranking in men's at the end was not 400+ it was 500+

She has the same advantage on the women's team that she had when she competed on the men's team prior to transitioning. She is an amazing swimmer, who works very, very hard to be as good as she is.


This is where she was at prior to transitioning:

Thomas began swimming on the men's team at the University of Pennsylvania in 2017, and during her freshman year, recorded a time of 8 minutes and 57.55 seconds in the 1,000-yard freestyle that ranked as the sixth-fastest national men's time, as well as 500-yard freestyle and 1,650-yard freestyle times ranked within the national top 100.[5] On the men's swim team in 2018–2019, Thomas finished second in the men’s 500, 1,000, and 1,650-yard freestyle at the Ivy League championships as a sophomore in 2019.[5][4][8] During the 2018–2019 season, Thomas recorded the top university men's team times in the 500 free, 1000 free, and 1650 free.[9]

When you compare that track record to her track record as a woman, She is performing about the same, relative to her peers, after transitioning as she did, relative to her peers, after transitioning.

What you are doing is roughly equivalent to citing a sprinters run times when they are recovering from a broken leg, vs when they are fully healed up and ready to go. I think most people would look at that and understand that the comparison doesn't make sense. Pre HRT records on the men's team, to HRT records on the women's team, is obviously the fair comparison, unless your goal is to demonstrate just how dramatically HRT treatment effects trans people's bodies.

 

[Climber]

The facts I was referring to is Lia Thomas's actual swimming record. Citing her performance on the men's team while on HRT and comparing it to her performance on the women's team is a really dumb comparison. You seemed to have stopped trying to make that claim after the second time of being shown her actual record, but several others here didn't seem to take the hint.

On what I was proving with the anecdote, look at Ernie's comment I was responding to. It's very easy to provide real or imagined anecdotes, but they don't prove anything one way or the other. It seems like we actually agree on that.

Discontinuing isn't an admission of the other person winning, just had my say and was done.

She wasn't one of the best men in the 500m race that she won, she was 6th in the 1000m race. It was the 500m race that she won and prior she was ranked in the top 100 in that race as a man.

We are comparing apples to oranges with these and the rankings aren't quickly available from the wiki.

 

[littlebeast]

Thanks for the delightful reply.

The crusty old motherfucker who was my mentor in my early working years was known as such. A lot of people were scared of him. He made my level of crust look like jellyfish on a scale that goes up to Mt. Everest of Granite. He called me "boy" with a small b for the first two years.

apologies for the threadjack - but you brought back so many awesome memories of a few of these dudes. my first job (at 18) was on a mechanical assembly line (tomato sorters lol). i was the only girl, and most of the guys thought i had no business being there, but they were respectful toward me (i was a hard worker) and they were mostly pleasant - except for this massive old russian dude. every time i walked past him i’d say hi, and he’d just glare at me. thought he hated me, but i was persistent (come on dude - we can be friends - yes?). i’d been there a few months when i was wrenching on a bolt and broke the head off of it - my hand slipped abruptly and i got cut pretty bad (blood everywhere). a bunch of guys came running over and were gathered around. all the sudden he comes charging through them, knocking everyone out of way like bowling pins. he had grabbed the first aid kit - and next thing i know, my hand is all wrapped up (expert field dressing). he never said a word the whole time. when he was done he gave me a very warm, grandfatherly look and then he walked off. after that, he never smiled at me when i walked past and said hi, but he did nod his head very slightly - and he didn’t give me any more of those fierce glares . will never forget him.

 

[afm199]

What a great story!

 

[msethhunter]

apologies for the threadjack - but you brought back so many awesome memories of a few of these dudes. my first job (at 18) was on a mechanical assembly line (tomato sorters lol). i was the only girl, and most of the guys thought i had no business being there, but they were respectful toward me (i was a hard worker) and they were mostly pleasant - except for this massive old russian dude. every time i walked past him i’d say hi, and he’d just glare at me. thought he hated me, but i was persistent (come on dude - we can be friends - yes?). i’d been there a few months when i was wrenching on a bolt and broke the head off of it - my hand slipped abruptly and i got cut pretty bad (blood everywhere). a bunch of guys came running over and were gathered around. all the sudden he comes charging through them, knocking everyone out of way like bowling pins. he had grabbed the first aid kit - and next thing i know, my hand is all wrapped up (expert field dressing). he never said a word the whole time. when he was done he gave me a very warm, grandfatherly look and then he walked off. after that, he never smiled at me when i walked past and said hi, but he did nod his head very slightly - and he didn’t give me any more of those fierce glares . will never forget him.

Old eastern bloc dudes are hardcore. That nod was every bit a smile and hello you’d get from a westerner.

 

[afm199]

Old eastern bloc dudes are hardcore. That nod was every bit a smile and hello you’d get from a westerner.

This. My mentor was a Polish Jew who got out of Poland when Hitler was assuming power in Germany. He didn't smile much but it was like getting a great letter when he did, as opposed to one post card a month.

 

[GAJ]

This. My mentor was a Polish Jew who got out of Poland when Hitler was assuming power in Germany. He didn't smile much but it was like getting a great letter when he did, as opposed to one post card a month.

I'm halfway through an excellent film on Poland during the war.

"The Zookeeper's Wife" on Netflix.

Harrowing.

Also loved littlebeast's story.

And your nice brief replies in this thread to a wall of unconvincing text.

 

[afm199]

I'm halfway through an excellent film on Poland during the war.

"The Zookeeper's Wife" on Netflix.

Harrowing.

Also loved littlebeast's story.

And your nice brief replies in this thread to a wall of unconvincing text.

When you find yourself swimming in a river of shit, it's more important to comment that it's shit, than it is to comment on the size, color, and firmness of the turd population.

 

[DrewZZZZZ]

World swimming bans transgender athletes from women's events

I don't think it's an unfair decision.

Thoughts?

I stand with trans rights and the right to self identify.

I believe what we are faced with is the changing times against centuries of male/female gender binary.

Sports from what i know has always been separated by male and female. Exception mix gender sports/teams.

So yes a male swimmer may win in a swimming match, but maybe not a tennis match. A female may win an archery match, but may not a wrestling match.

Fair, unfair idk. but least we will bring to attention the important of Trans rights, self identification. and maybe just maybe redefine how we look at Gender in Society for the good. Be free not rigged.

So i say give all the competitors on the World swimming team a medal, Money award, and let 1st finisher be a male or female.

What might be a little food for thought that puzzles me is Why Male/female/self identify folk are playing into the existing world of gender binary. I hope the underlying motive is to reshape the status quo, not reinforce a male/female world.

How about Competition in Society/Culture. Its so gender focus when it comes to the physical body. How about competition be about other attributes, like a chess game for example. Don't chew me out about the origins of chess. You get what I mean. Im all for the development of New games that bring all competitors insights.

 

[afm199]

Ehh? Could you speak up? I don't have my hearing aids in.

 

[DrewZZZZZ]

Ehh? Could you speak up? I don't have my hearing aids in.

You don't need your hearing Aid

 

[James]

This thread has been incredibly helpful in my own personal development.

As far as sports: if gender is left out as a consideration for classes of competition, there will be 1 elite competition and it will be, almost entirely, biological males.

While there may be examples/sports of non biological males being competitive, the idea of "sport" is pervasive enough that similar guidelines are accepted across the variety of sports.

In the pursuit of inclusiveness, classes have formed. A lot of this has been established with less information/compassion than we have now.

To the specific topic of this thread, I don't believe the swimming federation has made a mistake. There isn't 1 right answer. There is no way to appease 100% of the people. It's a very difficult time for sports.