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2 teen girls carjack and kill an Uber Eats driver in Washington DC

To me its no different than carry pepper spray or a taser around. I mean what's the alternative not have the skill, or learn to properly fight by getting myself into a few bar brawls? We actively spar against other resisting opponents and these are my colleagues who know jiu jitsu. I'm pretty sure I can apply a joint lock on some jackass who doesn't know what he's doing.

Now, if he's trained on the other hand that's where I might get into trouble. But then again, its another reason for me to not actively look for a fight if I can help it.
 
So in your view all good Citizens should own guns to protect us from the "State" and at the same time we should remove most laws from society?

What am I missing here?

Sounds like you liked the "Mad Max" movies as a blueprint for society.

What you just described is our Civil Rights as outlined in the Constitution and how this country mostly worked for the first 180 years or so. :dunno

The Mad Max films operated in currency deprived barter economy, which is not an ideal model for resource exchange.
 
To me its no different than carry pepper spray or a taser around. I mean what's the alternative not have the skill, or learn to properly fight by getting myself into a few bar brawls? We actively spar against other resisting opponents and these are my colleagues who know jiu jitsu. I'm pretty sure I can apply a joint lock on some jackass who doesn't know what he's doing.

Now, if he's trained on the other hand that's where I might get into trouble. But then again, its another reason for me to not actively look for a fight if I can help it.
Two decades ago, trained martial artists were the least likely to pick a fight because they knew what somebody can do to another.

With MMA, a portion of them are people who would have often gotten into bar fights, now they're heavily trained so they're more dangerous and a portion of them still get into bar fights.

If you pick a fight with a guy whose face looks like Dan Henderson's, then you deserve to get your ass kicked and you would have very little chance of re-arranging his face. :laughing
 
Two decades ago, trained martial artists were the least likely to pick a fight because they knew what somebody can do to another.

With MMA, a portion of them are people who would have often gotten into bar fights, now they're heavily trained so they're more dangerous and a portion of them still get into bar fights.

If you pick a fight with a guy whose face looks like Dan Henderson's, then you deserve to get your ass kicked and you would have very little chance of re-arranging his face. :laughing

Also, if you fight wrestlers, they will 100% of the time put fingers in your butt.
 
Also, if you fight wrestlers, they will 100% of the time put fingers in your butt.
How often do you fight wrestlers? :twofinger

I wrestled for 12 years and never put my finger in another's butt, either while wrestling or fighting.
 
How often do you fight wrestlers? :twofinger

I wrestled for 12 years and never put my finger in another's butt, either while wrestling or fighting.

LOL, not in a long time. I used to know one dude from the Wrestling team at Montgomery High in Santa Rosa and he used to call it the, "Cupholder," as in, "I fucking stuffed a hand into his cupholder and took him down to his dome (bounced his head off the ground in a take down) and he was over."

It was always Wrestlers and Football Offensive Lineman. I knew at least one guy who was on both teams.

I assume these days he is happily working at the TSA doing cavity searches up to the elbow. :laughing
 
Enforcing the Law Is Inherently Violent

Yale law professor Stephen L. Carter believes that the United States would benefit if the debate about what laws ought to be passed acknowledged the violence inherent in enforcing them.

Law professors and lawyers instinctively shy away from considering the problem of law’s violence. Every law is violent. We try not to think about this, but we should. On the first day of law school, I tell my Contracts students never to argue for invoking the power of law except in a cause for which they are willing to kill. They are suitably astonished, and often annoyed. But I point out that even a breach of contract requires a judicial remedy; and if the breacher will not pay damages, the sheriff will sequester his house and goods; and if he resists the forced sale of his property, the sheriff might have to shoot him.

This is by no means an argument against having laws.

It is an argument for a degree of humility as we choose which of the many things we may not like to make illegal. Behind every exercise of law stands the sheriff – or the SWAT team – or if necessary the National Guard. Is this an exaggeration? Ask the family of Eric Garner, who died as a result of a decision to crack down on the sale of untaxed cigarettes. That’s the crime for which he was being arrested. Yes, yes, the police were the proximate cause of his death, but the crackdown was a political decree.

The statute or regulation we like best carries the same risk that some violator will die at the hands of a law enforcement officer who will go too far. And whether that officer acts out of overzealousness, recklessness, or simply the need to make a fast choice to do the job right, the violence inherent in law will be on display. This seems to me the fundamental problem that none of us who do law for a living want to face.

But all of us should.
 
What you just described is our Civil Rights as outlined in the Constitution and how this country mostly worked for the first 180 years or so. :dunno

That's quite a stretch there. So we've only had the society we've had today since around the 1950s? It's more likely that along with "civilization" came law enforcement. So as the frontier closed in the 1880s or so, so too did the lawlessness start to close. "Freedom" switched from being a situation where one lived outside the physical range or jurisdiction of civilization/law to one of being outside the monetary range or jurisdiction of civilization only (monetary freedom is the only real freedom today and even that can be taken away by the state or society).

The interesting thread of this discussion is that as societies become settled and more productive they tend to create agreements that should be viewed as the glue holding them together but are often times portrayed as the oppressive tyranny of government restricting freedom.

The idea that laws are an expression of force by the government is only one part of the picture. They are also the agreements we make to maintain order within a society. Highlighting one without the other diminishes the value of cooperation while promoting individualism above all else.
 
That's quite a stretch there. So we've only had the society we've had today since around the 1950s? It's more likely that along with "civilization" came law enforcement. So as the frontier closed in the 1880s or so, so too did the lawlessness start to close. "Freedom" switched from being a situation where one lived outside the physical range or jurisdiction of civilization/law to one of being outside the monetary range or jurisdiction of civilization only (monetary freedom is the only real freedom today and even that can be taken away by the state or society).

The interesting thread of this discussion is that as societies become settled and more productive they tend to create agreements that should be viewed as the glue holding them together but are often times portrayed as the oppressive tyranny of government restricting freedom.

The idea that laws are an expression of force by the government is only one part of the picture. They are also the agreements we make to maintain order within a society. Highlighting one without the other diminishes the value of cooperation while promoting individualism above all else.

No, it is not a stretch. It is the actual history of our country. :dunno

Another BARFer posted this in the other thread about policing, this guy is pretty succinct in his going over the timelines.

[YOUTUBE]n7Rm3tuMFTI[/YOUTUBE]

People uneducated on the principles that guided the founding of Democracy seem somehow unaware that before we even had a Bill of Rights, there was a strong argument AGAINST having one, because listing a Bill of Rights would imply that the State issued to rights to Citizens. That of course is counterintuitive to the whole point of a free country, which is that you can do whatever the fuck you want, as long as you don't actually bother your neighbors too much while they are on their property.
 
So, get rid of most laws and poof, no problems with enforcement.

Your job would be so easy.

You have a lot, lot less problems if Law Enforcement doesn't have as many laws to enforce.

Ending the war on drugs alone would be a motherfucking REVOLUTION in improved conditions in enforcement, especially for disadvantaged urban communities.
 
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So, get rid of most laws and poof, no problems with enforcement.

Your job would be so easy.
Enforcing the laws is violence. The laws themselves are not violent. Any argument equating laws to violence is fallacious. Laws are parameters we agree to as a society so that we can function without having to constantly ask one another what is/isn't okay to do in order to keep our society functioning. Formal agreements we make to understand what is/isn't allowed. The idea that this is something that started 50 years ago is just as fallacious.
 
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So, get rid of most laws and poof, no problems with enforcement.

Your job would be so easy.

I'm not advocating getting rid of laws. But everyone should recognize that the enforcement of any law can lead to violence. Without the threat of violence, our laws would just be unenforceable suggestions.
 
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Enforcing the laws is violence. The laws themselves are not violent. Any argument equating laws to violence is fallacious. Laws are parameters we agree to as a society so that we can function without having to constantly ask one another what is/isn't okay to do in order to keep our society functioning. Formal agreements we make to understand what is/isn't allowed. The idea that this is something that started 30 years ago is just as fallacious.

Your argument is just silly. Laws without enforcement are meaningless. Like, in the other thread dudes are posting papers written by Harvard Law Professors declaring just the opposite of what you said. :dunno

I'm not advocating getting rid of laws. But everyone should recognize that the enforcement of any law can lead to violence. Without the threat of violence, our laws would just be unenforceable suggestions.

Exactly. No one gives a shit what the UN dictates. Yet still, you don't want to advocate for getting laws from the 1860's about how negroes can't buy property in some areas off the law books?

The vehicle and traffic code is fucking absurd, there should be like 5-6 vehicle laws to be enforced, that is it. We need to purge the books into a manageable and referenceable rules that society and communities can buy into again without need to consult a $350 an hour specialist.
 
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Your argument is just silly. Laws without enforcement are meaningless. Like, in the other thread dudes are posting papers written by Harvard Law Professors declaring just the opposite of what you said. :dunno

Nah. Most of the time people follow the laws without any problems or concerns. So Ah'm smahtuh than some Hahvud pruhfessuhs? Awesome! :thumbup
 
Also, if you fight wrestlers, they will 100% of the time put fingers in your butt.

Dude, wrestlers are the last guys I want to fight. If that video with that college football dbag getting his ass beat by a wrestler proves anything, it just reinforces my point having training is a competitive advantage.

https://www.si.com/college/oklahoma...status-with-oklahoma-following-bathroom-brawl

Also Judokas. Those dudes will send you flying in which ways you never knew you could.
 
The vehicle and traffic code is fucking absurd, there shoudl be like 5-6 vehicle laws to be enforced, that is it. We need to purge the books into a manageable and referenceable rules that society and communities can buy into again without need to consult a $350 an hour specialist.

There are 29 code books filled with laws in California. That doesn't include all of the municipal and county codes, nor does it include federal law that is enforceable in the state.

Nah. Most of the time people follow the laws without any problems or concerns. So Ah'm smahtuh than some Hahvud pruhfessuhs? Awesome! :thumbup

True. But many are adhered to because of the possibility of enforcement. I'm not suggesting that if there were no murder laws that most people would just start killing others for sport. But if tax laws were unenforceable, how many would pay taxes if there were no consequences for not paying them? How many people would obey traffic laws, or stop for the police, if they weren't enforceable?

Why keep paying the mortgage if there were no consequences for not paying it? Most laws don't have to be physically enforced on most people, most of the time, for them to be effective. But they need to be enforceable, ultimately through the threat of violence, for the system to work.
 
Dude, wrestlers are the last guys I want to fight. If that video with that college football dbag getting his ass beat by a wrestler proves anything, it just reinforces my point having training is a competitive advantage.

https://www.si.com/college/oklahoma...status-with-oklahoma-following-bathroom-brawl

Also Judokas. Those dudes will send you flying in which ways you never knew you could.

Dude, I am not sure if you took my promise of those guys putting fingers in your butt as anything except a clear indication that they are the last guys you want to fight. Butt that is intended as a warning. Never forget Captain Cupholder.

:laughing

I never hung around much with Judo people, but I believe it. The style is very primate friendly.

There are 29 code books filled with laws in California. That doesn't include all of the municipal and county codes, nor does it include federal law that is enforceable in the state.

My point exactly. The burden of legislature is so severe no one even really takes it seriously anymore and having the Law conformed to without exception is literally impossible. This means that the Officers on the street out there on the street trying to enforce the will of the people (law) HAVE to use selective enforcement tempered by their best judgement just to serve the best they can. Officers being human, this of course opens us up for bias and abuse, since they are all people too.

Much better to have a very small book of important and easily understood laws for which society demands 100% compliance.
 
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True. But many are adhered to because of the possibility of enforcement. I'm not suggesting that if there were no murder laws that most people would just start killing others for sport. But if tax laws were unenforceable, how many would pay taxes if there were no consequences for not paying them? How many people would obey traffic laws, or stop for the police, if they weren't enforceable?

Why keep paying the mortgage if there were no consequences for not paying it? Most laws don't have to be physically enforced on most people, most of the time, for them to be effective. But they need to be enforceable, ultimately through the threat of violence, for the system to work.

Already agreed that enforcing the laws or even threat of enforcement constitutes violence.

A perfect forinstance are traffic laws: speeding laws are treated kind of like suggestions. For the most part people adhere to them if not to the letter then somewhat closely and to a similar degree to those around them. Why? I can't speak for everyone else but for me it's because going with the flow is acceptable by my fellow motorists but ripping thru traffic going 20mph over the prevailing speed could end up in injury to myself and others. Besides, I am just trying to get from a to b. Do I really need to be at work 2 minutes sooner? Society has speeding laws to keep everyone within some reasonable limits to make sure we get what we need done while limiting the risk our actions pose to others and we kinda bend them as we go about doing it because even though we've already agreed to the laws we are willing, collectively, to add a bit more risk by exceeding them a bit.

It isn't as black and white as making a statement like "our society didn't function like this for the first 180 years it existed." Societies have always functioned like this. The westward expansion of the US shows the same trending. Even publicly funded police forces started in the east and moved westward as cities got larger and the reach of "civilization" expanded.
 
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