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2021 Ford Bronco - shots fired

Smash Allen said:
Give me halogen and filament bulbs, manual windows, hydraulic steering, timing chain, push rod, fixed cam, big displacement, natural aspirated, v8. The mpg is worth it.
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Smash Allen said:
Give me halogen and filament bulbs, manual windows, hydraulic steering, timing chain, push rod, fixed cam, big displacement, natural aspirated, v8. The mpg is worth it.
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One thing we don't hear much about is how a turboed engine performs at altitude. These trucks we're talking about, if they are used offroad in the west, will often be used at fairly high altitude. Naturally aspirated fire-breathing engines breathe a little less fire up there. Forced induction loses little or nothing at 9K feet.
 
Fair point, though I wonder what is the tow rating of the new Bronco?

Off road oftentimes is under 10mph, unless you are doing Baja type speed runs at altitude...

I don’t see the use case for a turbo in applications beyond towing at altitude. That is, use cases that justify the added cost and complexity...
 
Smash Allen said:
Fair point, though I wonder what is the tow rating of the new Bronco?

Off road oftentimes is under 10mph, unless you are doing Baja type speed runs at altitude...

I don’t see the use case for a turbo in applications beyond towing at altitude. That is, use cases that justify the added cost and complexity...
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The case for added complexity is far superior performance, durability and reliability, plus much longer service intervals.

Most likely, the Bronco will run circles around that old Suburban, as was given as an example, in every way. Including safety and emissions (by massive margins... more so than dynamics). Throw in probably 2 to 3X the fuel economy and much, much greater service intervals, there's no contest.

Most modern vehicles mostly just need oil, oil filters and air filters and maybe an accessory belt the first 100k miles. Gone are the days of 3k mile oil changes, cap, rotor, plug, plug wire, air filter, points, etc. "tune ups" every 15k or 20k miles.

No more engine flooding if you cranked the engine a little too long, no vapor lock, etc. No waiting around to start the car again after shutting it off on a highway trip. No having to carry a can of starter fluid, shit like that.

Simple is nice in a lot of ways, but for the day to day, new tech is hard to beat.
 
aminalmutha said:
The case for added complexity is far superior performance, durability and reliability, plus much longer service intervals.

Most likely, the Bronco will run circles around that old Suburban, as was given as an example, in every way. Including safety and emissions (by massive margins... more so than dynamics). Throw in probably 2 to 3X the fuel economy and much, much greater service intervals, there's no contest.

Most modern vehicles mostly just need oil, oil filters and air filters and maybe an accessory belt the first 100k miles. Gone are the days of 3k mile oil changes, cap, rotor, plug, plug wire, air filter, points, etc. "tune ups" every 15k or 20k miles.

No more engine flooding if you cranked the engine a little too long, no vapor lock, etc. No waiting around to start the car again after shutting it off on a highway trip. No having to carry a can of starter fluid, shit like that.

Simple is nice in a lot of ways, but for the day to day, new tech is hard to beat.
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I will give you the superior performance, but take issue with the durability, reliability, and increased service intervals claim. Unless you are comparing that old Suburban versus the new Bronco... Increased service intervals come at the expense of shortened engine life and/or better performance of modern day oils.
 
tzrider said:
One thing we don't hear much about is how a turboed engine performs at altitude. These trucks we're talking about, if they are used offroad in the west, will often be used at fairly high altitude. Naturally aspirated fire-breathing engines breathe a little less fire up there. Forced induction loses little or nothing at 9K feet.
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Turbos still lose a lot of power, though not nearly as much as NA engines.

The elevation is the reason until recently most of the top Pikes Peak racers had huge turbos, they would still lose like 20-30% of their power while traditional NA engines lost even more. Though, if one were to predict where things will move in the future. The current record holder for Pikes Peak is an EV, in large part because EVs actually do lose basically nothing from elevation changes.
 
Smash Allen said:
I will give you the superior performance, but take issue with the durability, reliability, and increased service intervals claim. Unless you are comparing that old Suburban versus the new Bronco... Increased service intervals come at the expense of shortened engine life and/or better performance of modern day oils.
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I strongly disagree. Modern engines are expected to last well beyond 100k miles. 200k isn't unusual. Go back to the days of carburetors and that wasn't necessarily the case.

I spent WAY more time fucking around with distributors, carbs, spark plugs, adjusting valves, etc. back in the day than I ever have with modern cars.

Modern oils are a byproduct of market and government demands for improved performance and emissions requirements. If they help increase service intervals, what's wrong with that?

I have been involved in engine design for most of the past two decades and performance, reliability, and service interval demands have all increased while having to conform with more and more stringent emissions regs, harsher environments, more aggressive fuels, and the elimination or reduction of toxic compounds within the engine. You couldn't even make a 20 year old engine today if you wanted to.

Sure, shit gets complicated if something goes wrong, but this is certainly not the malaise era. Rose colored glasses and all.
 
ScarySpikes said:
Turbos still lose a lot of power, though not nearly as much as NA engines.

The elevation is the reason until recently most of the top Pikes Peak racers had huge turbos, they would still lose like 20-30% of their power while traditional NA engines lost even more. Though, if one were to predict where things will move in the future. The current record holder for Pikes Peak is an EV, in large part because EVs actually do lose basically nothing from elevation changes.
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There are few roads that reach 14k'. Yes, of course they lose power but at 9k', there is less so.
 
Yeah but extra moving parts typically do not add reliability and unless you're buying toyota/honda, the added heat from the turbo is going to shorten the life of every plastic component under the hood.
 
Y'all realize OTR trucks have used turbos for decades? And work many times harder and longer than any car on the road?

Today's cars aren't Mustang SVO's with turbocharged Pinto motors.
 
Nearly zero plastic garbage under the hood of big rigs. Lots of plastic garbage under the hood of modern vehicles.
 
aminalmutha said:
I strongly disagree. Modern engines are expected to last well beyond 100k miles. 200k isn't unusual. Go back to the days of carburetors and that wasn't necessarily the case.
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I had almost 400K miles combined on my two Ford Explorers. Neither were perfect and trouble free (what is after so much mileage).

But I can say one thing for certain.

They always started, and on the first crank, hot and cold. With little more than oil changes as maintenance. I can't say never, but I honestly have little memory of even swapping out as much as a spark plug.

In California, cars are pretty much required to stay in emission tune for 100K miles. One reason we have 100K spark plugs.

My grognard old school jeep buddy who rebuilds transmissions in his bathtub has sworn off carburetors. EFI and engine management for the win.
 
I have almost 294k on my F150, but it is the 4.6L V8 that went in taxi cabs too.
 
Go back to the days of points and carbs and sub 100k rebuilds were not unusual.

Just like turbos are a fact of life, so are plastics. Light duty applications (cars, pickups) have much less severe durability requirements than OTR trucks because they are not being driven all day every day. Off highway applications have even more severe durability requirements.

Light duty is extremely cost sensitive, however.

Cars have come a long, long way. Old stuff is cool but I wouldn’t want to rely on it.
 
aminalmutha said:
Go back to the days of points and carbs and sub 100k rebuilds were not unusual.

Just like turbos are a fact of life, so are plastics. Light duty applications (cars, pickups) have much less severe durability requirements than OTR trucks because they are not being driven all day every day. Off highway applications have even more severe durability requirements.

Light duty is extremely cost sensitive, however.

Cars have come a long, long way. Old stuff is cool but I wouldn’t want to rely on it.
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I was trying to explain this to my kids the other day. It wasn’t long ago that there were pullouts on long grades (17!) for cars to cool down, and warnings to turn off air conditioning...
How it wasn’t unusual on our summer trips to have something on the car break. Or having to do maintenance on the weekends. We definitely weren’t rich folks, but these weren’t beaters we were driving. Just normal cars for the day.

Cars are amazing now. Even the shitty ones.
 
Used to be common to have to turn off A/C going over the Altamont.

People freaked out when OBDII came along. I fuggin’ love it. CANbus is ubiquitous. It’s not voodoo.
 
These are all independent aspects of improvements though. SA was disagreeing with you on reliability, because there's no way a turbo improves reliability, even though turbo reliability has improved right along with design and metallurgy and plastics and insulating materials, etc.
 
I said modern engines are more efficient, cleaner, more reliable, require less maintenance and last longer than old V8’s. As in, what I’m guessing was referred to, a pre-1983 small block Chevy since that is the most common example.

Rose colored glasses. Like I said, I appreciate them, cool to have, but would not want to rely on it.
 
Yeah don't get me wrong, I have an iron block 5.3 in a 'burb with 180k+ miles on it and that thing is still fkn amazing how it pulls 2.5 tons around and has only needed a fuel pump. Best of all worlds is to stick that motor in some basic old chassis and strip down the harness to the minimum, or even go back to carb if you really wanted to.
 
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