• There has been a recent cluster of spammers accessing BARFer accounts and posting spam. To safeguard your account, please consider changing your password. It would be even better to take the additional step of enabling 2 Factor Authentication (2FA) on your BARF account. Read more here.

5 dead in fatal motorcycle crash

GAJ said:
Didn't take long in this tread to start blaming the dead.

Rip fellow riders.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure anyone is BLAMING the riders. Maybe just speculating what could have happened. I for one have seen plenty of people - riders and drivers - who get pissy about people trying to pass them and speed up to make it more difficult to pass. That easily could have happened here.

But there's plenty of blame to go around: the bikers for (possibly) not allowing the car to pass easily, or at the very least not recognizing that the car wanted to pass and slowing down or moving out of the way to let him by; the car driver for not recognizing that he wasn't going to be able to make it past the bikers in time and not dropping back into his own lane; and the other driver for reacting improperly and unsafely to the point of losing control of his vehicle and slamming into the group. As with most accidents, there's several things that could have been done differently that would have prevented this tragedy.
 
Beauregard said:
It breaks my heart but I'm going to say something rather bluntly, and it is speculative, but.... I bet none of the dead were wearing full-faced helmets and/or any other practical riding gear.
Click to expand...


I'll agree with this...but from a different direction.

In that metal slamming mayhem moment...Full face helmets..armored leather..etc... are frequently overwhelmed...

But...what does make the difference is the attitude that bikers approach biking in. When they turn a blind eye to protection, and need for advanced skills go hand in hand with that...then...they both put themselves in these positions..and..don't have the skills or the bike that takes the commands of the skills..to avoid these situations.

I'll guarantee..no Honda civic (or any other variation of it) would be looking to pass me.

I'll guarantee I wouldn't be riding with a group.

I might get taken out some day, anyway...but odds are, it will be by a deer, or some other animal that is bigger (and faster) than a raccoon.
 
DaveT319 said:
I'm not sure anyone is BLAMING the riders. Maybe just speculating what could have happened. I for one have seen plenty of people - riders and drivers - who get pissy about people trying to pass them and speed up to make it more difficult to pass. That easily could have happened here.

But there's plenty of blame to go around: the bikers for (possibly) not allowing the car to pass easily, or at the very least not recognizing that the car wanted to pass and slowing down or moving out of the way to let him by; the car driver for not recognizing that he wasn't going to be able to make it past the bikers in time and not dropping back into his own lane; and the other driver for reacting improperly and unsafely to the point of losing control of his vehicle and slamming into the group. As with most accidents, there's several things that could have been done differently that would have prevented this tragedy.
Click to expand...


That's how I see it....It's important to talk about it, in the frame of mind, of getting real about what is out there. How to avoid, getting into the situations that turn deadly.

Some would rather pretend, and not see it that way..which of course they are free to do...

The carnage for bikers on the public highways..bothers me enough to want to talk about what can be done to lessen the numbers of the bad news reports. I know there are other bikers that think I'm the bad guy for this.

In my World they are the bad guy, for not seeing it the way I do.

Which is life..especially life on the internet.
 
Happy Hornet said:
we don't have the full story here. Could be that when the Dodge swerved off the shoulder he struck something, a blowout, a rut?
Just awful.
Click to expand...

SuperMike said:
The shoulder there looked plenty wide, too.
Click to expand...

What you folks aren't 'getting', is that this is the desert. While the sides look plenty wide, it's sand. At best, it's 2 inches deep. At worst, 12 inches. And there's no way to tell until you're in it. You just plain don't pull off the road out there, until you can find an actual dirt road, and even those can be sneaky.

I suspect that when the second (non-passing) driver got off the edge of road, the sand grabbed his wheel and tried to yank him hard right for an excursion off into the ocotillo. He probably instinctively steered back towards the road, and than, as someone else pointed out, got way more traction than he had and shot across the road into the riders.
 
DaveT319 said:
But there's plenty of blame to go around: the bikers for (possibly) not allowing the car to pass easily, or at the very least not recognizing that the car wanted to pass and slowing down or moving out of the way to let him by
Click to expand...

Sure, it's a possibility, but I swear you guys have latched onto it like it must be gospel. 'Damn Harley riders must have brought it on themselves!' and all that jazz. We have no evidence to suggest anything like that happened, and people making idiot passes are a lot more common than people stopping you from passing. So IMHO we chalk it up as a possibility, but an unlikely one until we have further evidence, and move on.

As sort of a reverse example of people's general inability to judge passes, I've made a 1-car pass before with oncoming traffic 1/8-1/4 mile away. On my R1, completed the pass in 1-2 seconds and maybe 50 feet. And yet the oncoming driver freaks the eff out, stomps on the brakes and swerves off to the side of the road, even though I was in my lane again a full 3-5 seconds before passing him.

Doesn't help things that the offending driver was a 90's Civic, which makes about 100hp on a good day.
 
budman said:
Truly sad... :rose :rose :rose :rose :rose

Cannot really fathom what the riders who were OK were going thru waiting for help to arrive. Seeing friends dismembered and passing.. :cry
Click to expand...

An EMT chick I dated told me about a time she came to the scene of a crash. Rider lost his head, and it was still in his helmet. She said his eyes blinked. She was traumatized by it and wouldn't date a guy that rode. It was our only date.
:(
 
sliverstorm said:
Sure, it's a possibility, but I swear you guys have latched onto it like it must be gospel. 'Damn Harley riders must have brought it on themselves!' and all that jazz. We have no evidence to suggest anything like that happened, and people making idiot passes are a lot more common than people stopping you from passing.
Click to expand...

No we don't have evidence that the riders did anything wrong and we have a driver who fled the scene. People, when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras.
 
DaveT319 said:
OK, bringing this here.

I simply cannot understand willfully leaving the scene without a direct threat to your safety. You're basically suggesting that they should preemptively leave assuming that they "might" threaten your safety. I can understand leaving if you are ACTUALLY threatened. But to assume you'll be threatened, I'm not sure that will hold up against the hit-and-run charges you'd be facing.
Click to expand...

If you ask cops, they'll tell you they worry more about the silent guy rather than the one with a big mouth. There's a reason for that.

By the time you perceive a threat, it may be too late.

Let me ask you - what is lost by the lack of your presence there if you're not a doctor? What can you possibly do that all the friends can't?

Your only reason to "not leave" is to be accountable for it, which is 100% fullfilled by the immediate call to 911 and contact with police.



The big drunk Indian that DUI hit us in OR when my wife was 6 mos preggy - he was huge. 3 times my size. I never said a word, but he must have seen the rage in my eyes and that's why he ran away from me. I chased him around his truck in circles. I have no idea what I would have done if I was able to actually put my hands in him, but I'd hope a court would find me temporarily insane because it sure felt like it.
 
T-1 Thunder said:
If you ask cops, they'll tell you they worry more about the silent guy rather than the one with a big mouth. There's a reason for that.
Click to expand...

I rather suspect it's actually because they are well accustomed to the theory of "all bark and no bite" :laughing
 
God, nasty...I just read this article, but investigators are pretty good about finding hit/run drivers. It doesn't sound like he/she clipped any of the bikers, so checking repair shops wouldn't help, but maybe a guilty-feeling passenger, friend, etc reports it.
 
jdhu said:
God, nasty...I just read this article, but investigators are pretty good about finding hit/run drivers. It doesn't sound like he/she clipped any of the bikers, so checking repair shops wouldn't help, but maybe a guilty-feeling passenger, friend, etc reports it.
Click to expand...

He'll out himself to someone in a couple of days. I can't believe anyone could keep this to themselves once they hear about it on the news.
 
Ray said:
So here's my question:

You're driving down a two lane road - light (but present) traffic in both directions. - Dirt shoulder your right, but there's a serious lip 2-6 inches and the shoulder is narrow.

You see oncoming traffic, and then suddenly a vehicle pulls out, into your lane, in order to make a pass. The gap is rapidly closing and you realize there is going to be a head on collision with you and the passing vehicle. Do you:

A. Yank the steering wheel into the oncoming lane of traffic even though there are other vehicles there, and if the car in front of you ever gets his shit together, that's the lane he's probably going to go back to.

B. Pull the car hard to the right shoulder. Suspension be damned!

C. Jump on the brakes as hard as humanly possible and attempt to keep the car moving as straight as possible and hope the oncoming car makes it back into his own lane before you collide.
Click to expand...

D. Slow down as much as possible while on the road, then steer off the road into the sand and keep the wheels straight. Don't try to get back on the road. If you get stuck, there are plenty of people going by that you can flag down for help.
 
Butch said:
this is really, really significant. I have experienced this many times.
That and the driver of the oncoming car has no skill and lost control.
The DMV gives CDL's to complete incompetents.
Click to expand...

tis true,most of the commercial drivers i encounter nowadays are not fit to drive a go cart,,heck,even when i wnet to school back in 95 to get mine,the requirements were lax,they are even wors it seems now,
 
T-1 Thunder said:
If you ask cops, they'll tell you they worry more about the silent guy rather than the one with a big mouth. There's a reason for that.

By the time you perceive a threat, it may be too late.

Let me ask you - what is lost by the lack of your presence there if you're not a doctor? What can you possibly do that all the friends can't?
Click to expand...
I understand the part about "if you're not a doctor". Obviously, if you can't offer assistance, then there's nothing you can do. But, the hit-and-run law has nothing to do with offering assistance.
T-1 Thunder said:
Your only reason to "not leave" is to be accountable for it, which is 100% fullfilled by the immediate call to 911 and contact with police.
Click to expand...

From a legal standpoint, is this in fact true? If you are on the phone immediately as you drive away, are you protected against hit-and-run? I'm not sure. I'd like to hear from a LEO or lawyer on this one. I'm not sure that it is true. I don't recall anything in the vehicle code providing for that. And, don't forget, if you've injured someone and are charged with hit-and-run, it's not 20002 (misdemeanor), it's 20001 (felony).

I understand your reasoning, I'm just not sure it would hold up legally.
 
Update: other driver was located and arrested for suspicion of DUI by the CHP.
 
DaveT319 said:
From a legal standpoint, is this in fact true? If you are on the phone immediately as you drive away, are you protected against hit-and-run? I'm not sure. I'd like to hear from a LEO or lawyer on this one.

I understand your reasoning, I'm just not sure it would hold up legally.
Click to expand...

I'd also like to hear from them to confirm this. Without confirmation, I'm only 90% sure on it.

I do recall a recent story in the LEO forum where a guy hit a police officer on accident and did not stop but was on the phone right away. He ended up pulling over a mile or two up the road. No charges were filed against him for hit-n-run. Based off that, it lends to my take on the situation, but I'm unaware of the full details to be certain.

Obviously, if the group is a girl scout troop - it's unreasonable to feel fear for your safety. But if it's a drunken party crowd in the street, or a big group of bikers...some folks may think it's more reasonable to be concerned about safety.

Edit: Rels post - good news! As I suspected...DUI. Glad they got him.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top