DC Regulator/Rectifier mystery

[Ironbutt]

I have a question for the collective.. Maybe i'm having a complete brain fart but I can't understand why this is happening. It's the smog.. no.. wait.. it's the nitrates contamination in the water..

1986 XR600R Baja Design old style harness and stator.

I want to use DC power on my XR.. So I added a DC reg/rec...


Basically.. if I use a regulator for AC.. no power to lights.. If I use a reg/rec for DC.. no power to lights... if I hook it up raw AC.. it works.


DC --> From my stator.. The two yellow output AC wires.. they connect to the yellow wires on the reg/reg... The output from the regulator/rec is Red and black wires..

Black goes to ground.. red goes into the harness.. BUT!!! When I check the power output while the engine is running I get 10V DC.No matter what the RPM.. Not 12, 13 or 14VDC.

The output of each of the yellow wires to ground is 9-13-VAC.

(am I measuring this wrong? Isn't it supposed to be lead to lead? I forget) It'll just be like 18-24VAC then huh?


AC --> Anyway.. when I connect the regulator.. to the AC circuit or to the DC circuit.. my headlight will not turn on. WTF?

AGHHHHHHHHH.. so right now.. lights are working but.. no regulation happening.. = BOOM.... AC regulator shows power on the meter but won't power the headlight. Does the regulator have to be grounded?

HELP before I go crazy..

 

[ST Guy]

Unless I miss my bet, you need much more AC voltage than that. This is just a guess, but I'm thinking that the Baja Designs stator is designed to put out only AC current and was never intended to be part of a system to generate DC voltage. So, they likely designed the stator to put out the proper range of voltages for 12 volt system bulbs and no more.

If a stator is designed as part of a DC system, the stator output is usually a much higher AC output. Usually in the range of 60 to 90 volts. So, I'm betting that what you're trying to do can't be done with the stator you've got. Try checking with Baja Designs. That's the first place I'd check with.

Anyone else?

 

[Ironbutt]

Unless I miss my bet, you need much more AC voltage than that. This is just a guess, but I'm thinking that the Baja Designs stator is designed to put out only AC current and was never intended to be part of a system to generate DC voltage. So, they likely designed the stator to put out the proper range of voltages for 12 volt system bulbs and no more.

If a stator is designed as part of a DC system, the stator output is usually a much higher AC output. Usually in the range of 60 to 90 volts. So, I'm betting that what you're trying to do can't be done with the stator you've got. Try checking with Baja Designs. That's the first place I'd check with.

Anyone else?

It's a Baja design stator and harness..

I even have the schematic.. but it has crucial missing pieces.. I could have done a better job drawing it.

And this 60-90VAC range you speak of.. is measuring yellow to yellow correct? Not yellow to ground.. it should be 0 ohms to ground with the engine off?

I checked yellow to ground.. probably why I got a bad reading. I need to shore up my troubleshooting skills..

Another oddity.. DC voltage--> if I measure ground to ground.. I get a + reading.. if I read red to ground.. I get a - reading. Same voltage.

 

[Z3n]

You're not supposed to be getting that much AC bleed over from wire to ground. You're suppsoed to check them against one another. Sounds like the stator is grounding out on the cases.

(Unless, of course, there's some weird/special case with the BD stuff, but I doubt that's the case)

 

[ST Guy]

Yes, normally you check voltage on a stator between any of the three wires. Usually yellow. And sometimes, you'll have a stator that only has two wires (a single coil winding).

And with the engine off, there should be an open circuit between any of the yellow wires and ground.

I still think the problem is that particular stator was never intended to work with a DC system so the voltage output is way too low to work with a VRR. Why not just give BD a call? That's the simple way to find out instead of all this guessing and time wasted in speculation. You could have your answer in a couple minutes.

 

[Ironbutt]

You're not supposed to be getting that much AC bleed over from wire to ground. You're suppsoed to check them against one another. Sounds like the stator is grounding out on the cases.

(Unless, of course, there's some weird/special case with the BD stuff, but I doubt that's the case)

It's slightly different.. They all work the same though. two, not three wires for AC.. Third is the igniter power.

Let me check again.. I think I'm being a doofus. Maybe I need to ground the AC regulator for it to work correctly.

But what you're saying isn't exactly correct.. lead to lead to lead should be 90VAC.. 30VAC each lead to ground..that makes sence no? So if my leads show 13VAC max.. then lead to lead would be 26VAC.. and that would be cut roughly in half when it went through the regulation.. to 13VAC..

I should have had a beer.. that was the problem..

Let me know if I'm off here..

 

[ST Guy]

Again.....just give them a call. I'm betting that 13 volts is the proper voltage because it was never intended for use with a VRR.

 

[Ironbutt]

Again.....just give them a call. I'm betting that 13 volts is the proper voltage because it was never intended for use with a VRR.

Ok.. I called.. nothing definitive..


I'll have to go back and troubleshoot just a little more methodically..

 

[Z3n]

It's slightly different.. They all work the same though. two, not three wires for AC.. Third is the igniter power.

Let me check again.. I think I'm being a doofus. Maybe I need to ground the AC regulator for it to work correctly.

But what you're saying isn't exactly correct.. lead to lead to lead should be 90VAC.. 30VAC each lead to ground..that makes sence no? So if my leads show 13VAC max.. then lead to lead would be 26VAC.. and that would be cut roughly in half when it went through the regulation.. to 13VAC..

I should have had a beer.. that was the problem..

Let me know if I'm off here..

You should be measuring them individually, yes. But if you're only getting 13vac out, that's way too low. A modern bike will put out 40-50v on each winding, so it sounds like the stator is the problem.

The stator shouldn't be grounded to the cases. Open circuit when you check the stator against the engine ground, if there's continuity there, it's going to cause the bike to not charge properly.

 

[Ironbutt]

You should be measuring them individually, yes. But if you're only getting 13vac out, that's way too low. A modern bike will put out 40-50v on each winding, so it sounds like the stator is the problem.

The stator shouldn't be grounded to the cases. Open circuit when you check the stator against the engine ground, if there's continuity there, it's going to cause the bike to not charge properly.

Hmm.. these are different animals.. apparently the stator is re-wound for low output.. Talking to the dude at BD. It tests okay.. low output is okay. It may be an electrosport stator..

I hate to admit.. but it's more than likely my troubleshooting method that is at fault here. I"ll let y'all know how it pans out.. I'm using no regulator at this point, since the output is so low @13vac max on one lead, everything works peachy. For how long? Who knows.. at worst it'll burn up my headlight.

I think I might have to ground the second yellow lead to get the right amount of AC power to use the regulator. It's gotta be a ground issue of some type.

 

[ST Guy]

In a normal stator/VRR system:

The Stator:

The stator will put out 60 to 90 volts. (On the average, depending upon bike. This may vary a little.)
The stator is not grounded. (If it is, you have a problem.)
There should be two or three stator leads, usually yellow.
Note: On alternators that don't use a permanent magnet but use a second set of coils to produce the magnetic field, there will be a separate wire to power a field coil. And usually, the circuit is grounded through the engine, though not always in which case there would be two extra wires. If your bike has a permanent magnet alternator, ignore this note.

On the VRR:

It must be grounded in some way.
There are wires that get connected to the alternator stator windings. (Usually yellow.)
There will be a larger gauge (usually) wire (usually red) that is the postive output from the VRR.
There will also sometimes be an extra wire that is usually wired to the positive terminal of the battery and is used to monitor battery/system voltage.

Typically, on a bike that has no need for DC voltage and only runs a minimum of lighting, the alternator is specifically designed to put out no more than about 14 volts or so. Light bulbs don't care whether they get AC or DC current. They go either way. So, the stator is wound so that it only puts out a maximum of 14 volts or so at max rpm. This way you don't burn out your bulbs when you hit redline. However, 14 volts or so it not adequate for conversion to DC. So, if you're hoping to get DC voltage on your bike, you'll likely need an aftermarket stator that's designed to put out what a VRR needs. Install the correct stator (hopefully the stock magnet is strong enough), and install the proper VRR and you'll get the DC you're looking for.

Good luck.
There is sometimes an extra lead

 

[ST Guy]

Ok.. I called.. nothing definitive..


I'll have to go back and troubleshoot just a little more methodically..

I'm surprised that they couldn't tell you exactly what it should be putting out.

 

[ST Guy]

You should be measuring them individually, yes. But if you're only getting 13vac out, that's way too low. A modern bike will put out 40-50v on each winding, so it sounds like the stator is the problem.

The stator shouldn't be grounded to the cases. Open circuit when you check the stator against the engine ground, if there's continuity there, it's going to cause the bike to not charge properly.

True, the stator should not be grounded. However, 13 volts AC could easily be just perfect if it's a system designed only for running lights. And if the bike originally did not have a VRR, and it was equipped with lights, then 13 volts makes perfect sense. Even if it's an aftermarket unit, it can still be designed to only put out 13 volts or so.

 

[Marlowe]

Most bikes are 60-90VAC or so per phase...so across your alternator, if you're not seeing that, the reg/rec is going to hate on it.

You could build your own reg-rec... full rectifier bridge (as a single piece or 4 diodes), and then a regulator capable of handling the full DC load on the bike, plus a massive heatsink.)

 

[Ironbutt]

Most bikes are 60-90VAC or so per phase...so across your alternator, if you're not seeing that, the reg/rec is going to hate on it.

You could build your own reg-rec... full rectifier bridge (as a single piece or 4 diodes), and then a regulator capable of handling the full DC load on the bike, plus a massive heatsink.)

After this is added, it won't be sutiable for single track anymore.

 

[Marlowe]

Actually a lot of regulators and some diodes are in threaded cases...you just drill holes in a large heatsink, thread them in, then make your connections to them... it's a solid enough heatsink/mounting system you could probably make one that would survive.



What's the total DC load?

 

[Ironbutt]

Actually a lot of regulators and some diodes are in threaded cases...you just drill holes in a large heatsink, thread them in, then make your connections to them... it's a solid enough heatsink/mounting system you could probably make one that would survive.



What's the total DC load?

It would be a fun project. wait.. "go big or go home.. " Let's put a mega squirt system on there!! YEAH!!

Funny you should ask. I have no idea. What's head and tail lights + signals? + a blinker gizmo. Run up to in wattage? I use an LED tail light. 55watt head light.. the turn signals are non functional. but I bet they're 5watt light bulbs.. = the relay thingy. so 60-100 watts max?

 

[Marlowe]

I'd say 100-120 or so, we'll call it 150 to be conservative. That gives us 12.5A.

So you'd need a regulator capable of 13-15A. Hmm.

 

[Marlowe]

Now that I think about it, 120-150W 12V solar charge controllers will do almost exactly what you want, as long as you add some filter caps and a rectifying bridge.

The charge controllers are in the $30-$40 range (check Amazon/eBay), a 15-20a full wave rectifying bridge is a few dollars, and then you just need a few largish capacitors to filter the DC.

Drop across the diodes in the bridge should put you in the 15-20 VDC range, which is what the charge controller will be happy with (12V panels have peak output around 17VDC, and unladen output up into the low 20s.)

Of course, this all assumes you're getting no more than 22-23VAC across that phase. Double check that first before trying anything I just pulled out of my ass.

Advantage of using the solar controller is they are switching converters, so you don't need to use a huge heatsink (since there's no linear regulator loss to heat), and you get a lot more efficiency out of it. (90+%)

 

[My900ss]

I am of the opinion you are over thinking the issue. You want to have a dual voltage system no? I.E. power the headlight with A/C and the turn signals, break lights and some accessories such as a heated vest or GPS with DC voltage correct?

To do so you will need both an A/C voltage regulator and a DC voltage rectifier / regulator. Now from what I read your system is not working correctly in either the D/C or A/C mode. The only configuration that is partially working is the unregulated A/C mode?

If that is correct let us agree that an A/C regulator does not amplify the A/C signal. So if you only have 10vac coming out of the regulator there is a chance you only have 10vac on the input of the regulator which would be the output of your alternator being to low.

The charging circuit on your bike, which is the unregulated alternator output should generate 13.7 to 15.3vac. The regulated A/C should be 13.5 to 14.5. You have a 3 coil alternator. Exciter, lighting and pulse generator, a basic check on these is with resistance. The exciter should measure 230 - 320ohms, the lighting 0.44 to 0.6 ohms and the pulse generator from 360 to 440 ohms.

So before you get into building your own rectifier/regulators lets start with the basics. With the wiring as close to stock as you can get it at this time are you getting >13.2 vac out of the a/c regulator? If no, are you getting >13.5vac at the input of the a/c regulator. If no are your resistance reading in spec?

Run through these checks, let us know what you get and we can try to help further from there.

For reference I own an 93 XR600R and I stayed at a Holiday in Express a few different times.