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Harley-Davidson says goodbye to the XR1200

Carlo said:
Desmondromic valve actuation goes back to before WWII.

And it IS outdated. Ducati's don't rev any higher than other high performance engines with valve springs.

They hang onto it for the same reason that Harley makes bikes with pushrod 45 degree v-twins; it's a trademark.
Let's also not forget how complicated desmodromic valve mechanisms are.
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I guess you missed the post before yours:


JO EBRMC said:
Actually, F1 and the other MotoGP manufacturers had to develop and adopt pneumatic valves in order to keep up with Ducati's desmo valves. There was no way they could get to 19k RPMs with spring valves.
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JO EBRMC said:
I guess you missed the post before yours:
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Except Honda got a streetbike to 19k RPM with a warranty in 1986.

Pneumatic valves may be preferable for a list of reasons, including weight, infinitely variable lift and duration, adjustable "cam" profile, ability to provide feedback about combustion, durability at high revs, etc. The list goes on.

High revs isn't one of them.
 
russ69 said:
The valve spring harmonics were the problem and that was solved in the early fifties (probably during the war). Honda was spinning their 250cc six cylinder to 18,000 rpm in the mid sixties and past 23,000 in the 80s. The smaller bikes rev'ed even higher. F1 ran spring valves for many decades before they switched to pneumatic valves. You are heavily drinking the Ducati-aid so I'm sure you are unconvinced but there is nothing done by desmodromic valve system that couldn't be done by spring valves. If there was everybody would be using the system that patent ran out some time in the 1940s.
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If you've followed any of my posts (which it is clear you haven't), I can't fucking stand Ducatis and will never own one.

There are some issues with your points. First, there is clearly something that desmo valves do that spring valves do not and you mentioned it yourself: lack of spring harmonics to work around.

The other issue is that the smaller displacement motors you mention also used lighter springs and we less affected by spring harmonics.

The third point is that Honda itself said that they could not get past 18K with the 800cc motor without going to pneumatic valves. At that point, Ducati were already at nearly 19k.

There's no religion here, I simply work with the information I have.
 
Ducati 900ss. Best bike I ever owned lol

Jo, get out of here with your valid points, they have no business here lol
 
thenewwazoo said:
IMO the XR1200 flopped because it was the worst of all possible worlds. It sure as hell wasn't a sportbike, it was naked and thus a bad touring bike, it didn't have the cruiser appeal, and people who like high quality will never accept that lump of shit they call an engine. You can't engineer around 45 degree vees and end up with anything worth a damn.
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:nchantr

So much ignorance.
 
Carlo said:
Desmondromic valve actuation goes back to before WWII.

And it IS outdated. Ducati's don't rev any higher than other high performance engines with valve springs.
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The rev limit is more a function of piston mass than it is valve actuation.
 
The New Bonneville (and sisters) has been a strong seller for half of a decade. The New V7 has received fantastic reviews and probably would sell well if it had a tenth of H-D's distribution. You can't tell me there isn't a market for sporty retro standards. They just happen to be 100 and 200 lbs lighter than the XR1200, respectively, and many thousands cheaper. H-D has every bit of the engineering and production capability to beat these two bikes at their own game wit ha new XR750 (not a tarted up 1200), in a way which is absolutely authentic to the H-D legacy. The problem is not sportbike customers vs Harley customers. It's Harley.

triumph-bonneville-t-02.jpg

motoring-graphics-2_841260a.jpg
 
fast4d said:
a question about harleys....

why do their exhaust gas smell the same? I've been stuck behind many who don't watch their mirrors....they all have this smell of incomplete combustion. kind of like oil (or something else) burning.
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Can't be the incomplete combustion due to it being an air cooled motor. Hell
BMWs and air cooled ducs don't stink. Must be the "something else".

Must be the hick fat ass toothless rider. After "if you can read this the bitch fell off" no need to waste time with soap and water or finding a urinal. If the levis don't stand up on their own they ain't waterproof.
 
Damn; 3 harley threads going at the same time. BARF must be having a particularly heavy period this month.:rolleyes
 
A lot of guys on this forum really know how to improve Harley. The only problem is they are already selling a lot more bikes than anybody else.:laughing
 
Versystim said:
A lot of guys on this forum really know how to improve Harley. The only problem is they are already selling a lot more bikes than anybody else.:laughing
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More than Honda, Hero, and Bajaj?

They are a dying company (literally), and they know it. Their customers average age increases by MORE than a year each year, and every time they try to attract a new audience they fail. It is their top priority - the proof being how much money they spent on Buell and MV Agusta in well-intentioned but poorly thought-out and worse-executed flails. The cash cow of their current line and H-D branded panties can only last so long. There is no question more urgent inside their halls than how do we reach new, young riders. Their current stock price is basically a multiple of their present profitability times the likelihood that they'll figure this out before the fuse is gone.

When things get ugly enough (and they will... I give them 5 more years on their current path), they will finally have the corporate will to clean out their organization and sales network of the myopia and stagnation that is preventing their expansion.
 
ohio said:
More than Honda, Hero, and Bajaj?

They are a dying company (literally), and they know it. Their customers average age increases by MORE than a year each year, and every time they try to attract a new audience they fail. It is their top priority - the proof being how much money they spent on Buell and MV Agusta in well-intentioned but poorly thought-out and worse-executed flails. The cash cow of their current line and H-D branded panties can only last so long. There is no question more urgent inside their halls than how do we reach new, young riders. Their current stock price is basically a multiple of their present profitability times the likelihood that they'll figure this out before the fuse is gone.

When things get ugly enough (and they will... I give them 5 more years on their current path), they will finally have the corporate will to clean out their organization and sales network of the myopia and stagnation that is preventing their expansion.
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I don't know where you are getting your information but you are wrong. The fact is they have more younger buyers than the other companies, fact. I think going into your mind to find facts is a bad place to go. I'm really not a huge Harley fan but I do believe in dealing with reality. If someone can't face facts, well I just can't bother. Really.
 
Versystim said:
I don't know where you are getting your information but you are wrong. The fact is they have more younger buyers than the other companies, fact. I think going into your mind to find facts is a bad place to go. I'm really not a huge Harley fan but I do believe in dealing with reality. If someone can't face facts, well I just can't bother. Really.
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If you're going to put it that way, I've got to ask where you have gotten your data. Every market analysis I've seen mentions aging demographic as a key long term risk.
 
seems like a pretty cool bike that i wouldn't mind riding...but as others have stated, doesn't fit well with the harley image... harley very much caters to the drunk, overweight, old, if-santa-never-went-to-college type of crowd so that bike doesn't fit into their marketing.

in all seriousness, harleys are all about cruisers- that bike is not a cruiser & harley customers aren't into that kinda shit; the people who are into those kinds of bikes know better than to buy harley. why do you think buell tanked?
 
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