Harley-Davidson says goodbye to the XR1200

[OldMadBrit]

Vance & Hines is behind the XR1200 series, not HD. V&H put up the prize money and use the riders and bikes in advertising, while HD does not. Its a marketing effort for V&H to sell performance accessories to the huge HD market. The XR1200 series is slated to continue through 2014, IIRC..

So V&H will be sponsoring a race series for an obsolete bike - I like their consistency

 

[Map8]

From their annual report, and their investors.



Read more deeply than the first sentence. Easy to spin numbers, hard to change them.


Positive change from crap is an improvement, but it's not the salvation they claim. By virtue of their huge share of US market, it is really easy to cherry pick and present numbers that make their outlook look better. E.g. If you look more carefully at their figures in old press releases for the youth market, they defined it as larger than 750cc, which allowed them to basically ignore everything but cruiser and literbike purchases. Clever. They finally fixed that in their annual report because their investors called them out on that, so now they trumpet overall market share and point to market growth as if it were a market share gain.


You're getting your news from MCN? You know that's just a H-D press release, right?


Yeah, much better to get your info from the mouth of the snake than the snake oil salesman.

Primary research is your best source. Finance industry is your second. Mainstream financial journalism (WSJ, Financial Times, etc.) is your third. Company PR department / moto journalism should be your last resort - they're great for ride reviews and new product info, but not for business news or POV.

I think y'all are responding emotionally to a perceived insult to H-D. I actually love H-D. I'm desperate to see them succeed. And they will, but it's going to get worse before it gets better, and spinning the market recovery as an H-D recovery is only prolonging and deepening the fall. They are in need of a serious re-org, and eventually Buffett will make it happen.

Chill. You and Versystim were arguing numbers and not producing any. I posted some. My source isn't better than anyone else's but its readily available. Just figured it would be better to post some numbers than have everyone making assumptions.

I have never owned an HD and don't ever plan to. Their bikes don't appeal to me so there is not perceived insult.

The motorcycle market is big and getting more diversified everyday. Nothing wrong with HD having their slice.

 

[ob1ventura]

in all seriousness, harleys are all about cruisers- that bike is not a cruiser & harley customers aren't into that kinda shit; the people who are into those kinds of bikes know better than to buy harley. why do you think buell tanked?

Softails maybe. Road King is a touring bike and Dyna is more of a standard than a cruiser as is the sporty.

What is with all the preoccupation w/ H.D. on BARF anyway? Bagging on H.D. on BARF is like running around the Bay Area in '12 piloting a Prius sporting an "Obama in '09 / pepsi logo" sticker on the rear bumper. Message: please love me, I'm just like you.

 

[Papi]

Getting this train wreck back on track;

How many of you have actually ridden or ride an XR1200?

Like I said earlier, the modded one I rode that was a Storz jobby was fun as hell! He did a great job with suspension, the flat track style flanders and trim out. It was similar to the fun on an SM, but with the grunt only the VT can provide. A real friggen blast. The new stocky I rode from an HD demo, it was just as fun, but different.

I've had many HD's, and still have several. And for the most part when I'm bored with the whole sport or racing bike thing, I love a ride on my HD's. The combination of the nostalgia and ride for me are just a nice break from the body position yoga gymnastics I play normally on the other bikes. From my slammed and wide FL to my '78 HD Cafe Racer, I love'em all. But that Street Tracker XR1200, that shit was just pure fun, and I'm gonna build one from a base HD XR1200.

So if you haven't actually ridden one, then H8 on dummies.

.

 

[Human Ills]

I guess we could check HD's demographic data in their annual report:
http://investor.harley-davidson.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=87981&p=irol-demographics

As the report mentions they are attracting young buyers but more importantly HD is positioned for a lot of growth internationally. Once again, reports of HD's death are premature.

"NEW MOTORCYCLE U.S. MARKET SHARE & DEMOGRAPHICS
Harley-Davidson is the market leader among Young Adults (men and women 18-34) in the U.S. on-road 651cc+ motorcycle market"

bwahahaha

 

[DWC]

And you see bullshit like this

2009 HARLEY Street Glide **OVER 30k Invested** $21000 (san jose south)

2009 Harley Davidson Street Glide with ABS and security system. I have put a tremendous amount of money into this bike and it needs absolutely nothing! Only has 4k miles. 96" motor with Woods Cams, BIG Sucker intake with V&H Skull Cap, and Reinhart True Duals exhaust. The bike was tuned with TTS Mastertune done at Horsepower Express in Campbell. Dyno run was 93hp with 101lbs of torque. Barnette clutch plates and Screamin Eagle pressure plate. Wheels are Renegade Tahoe design with matching rotors, 21" front and 18" rear with 180mm tire. You can fit a 200mm in the rear if you like. Flush mount fron axle and leg cap. Performance Machine grips, mirrors, fuel door and bag latches. Corbin seat for maximum comfort. Harley wind screen. Hidden antenna, 250 Elf Amp under fairing, and JL Audio speakers. No problems hearing you music here. Match painted had controls and inner fairing. Alloy Art 8" bars from Todd's Cycle with internal wiring. LED front headlight (looks bad ass and works amazing), LED rear tail light and clear lens turn signals, Lindy crash bar. Four point docking system and passenger back rest.

There is probably more that I can't remember. Bottom line... I spent the money so you don't have to. Also, if you do not know Harley's, the 2009 and newer is the new frame style. I have owned many and would not buy anything below 2009 if you want the best possible ride for the long haul.

To answer these questions ahead of time... NO it has never been wrecked and NO it is not salvaged.

If you need help with finaicing, San Jose Harley does do seller assist financing.



Starting MSRP is $18k. Fuck people like this.

I don't get where this could bother a rational person. So you are opposed to the free market? You wanted to buy this bike but the darn seller priced it over your head?

 

[louemc]

And Corvette engines use OHV with pushrods which obviously means that it's not outdated either and clearly capable of performance. Outdated, at least in terms of the BARF analysts, appears to be anything that was designed and implemented decades ago. But then again, I guess that means OHC and even DOHC is outdated technology too.

Desmo isn't outdated as a handicap way, but...it was introduced when valve trains were heavy and problematic with long pushrods taking on harmonic behavour, and the heavy parts not staying in contact with the cam profiles (Valve float).

Now with small (four valves VS two valves) and no pushrods and no rocker arms (cams over valves)...the Desmo has no more advantage..That's all.

 

[tzrider]

Now with small (four valves VS two valves) and no pushrods and no rocker arms (cams over valves)...the Desmo has no more advantage..That's all.

The system does have considerably less friction. There are plenty of disadvantages that I think offset that, but there is remarkably low internal friction in these engines.

 

[louemc]

that's probably exactly what it is. big displacement, air cooled engines will run hot by nature. keeping the fuel mix a little on the rich side (more gas than needed) keeps combustion temps down (perhaps a bit counter intuitive but it's true. lean burns hotter) and is "better" for the motor

True, it's called latent heat of evaporation...or in my terms, the evaporating un-burnt fuel, sucks up heat, cooling the fire.

 

[louemc]

The system does have considerably less friction. There are plenty of disadvantages that I think offset that, but there is remarkably low internal friction in these engines.

There have been lots of opinions expressed on that, and some saying the compressing the valve springs was a work done that was a drag on power as well...And tests have been made measuring these drags..and dis-proven. or so negligible, it isn't an issue.

Especially in the valve springs getting compressed on the cam lobes leading ramp...cause the compressed springs are pushing (aid turning the cam) on the trailing ramp of the cam lobe.

The Ducati's don't put out an advantage power over the other engine types, in the same starting grid. Sometimes a racer will come along, that dominates...but the engine doesn't.

 

[ohio]

The motorcycle market is big and getting more diversified everyday. Nothing wrong with HD having their slice.

That's where I think you're misinterpreting my comments. I want H-D to have a bigger slice. They want to have a bigger slice.

The XR1200 should have been killed. H-D is good at killing unsuccessful products. What they're bad at is making new successful products, and if you don't think they need help in that area then you are disagreeing with their top management, not just me.

This is sacrilege but Willie G stepping down was a really important step in saving that company. They need a lot more housecleaning, but that's really hard to do in a company that is still posting profits and thanks to a market bounce looks like it's growing. Like I said, ~5 more years they'll be desperate enough to step out of their comfort zone and make more than half-assed efforts towards the youth market.

 

[JO EBRMC]

The XR1200 should have been killed. H-D is good at killing unsuccessful products. What they're bad at is making new successful products, and if you don't think they need help in that area then you are disagreeing with their top management, not just me.

That is probably the only important point in this whole discussion.

 

[tzrider]

And tests have been made measuring these drags..and dis-proven. or so negligible, it isn't an issue.

Especially in the valve springs getting compressed on the cam lobes leading ramp...cause the compressed springs are pushing (aid turning the cam) on the trailing ramp of the cam lobe.

The Ducati's don't put out an advantage power over the other engine types, in the same starting grid. Sometimes a racer will come along, that dominates...but the engine doesn't.

From working on desmo engines, I can tell you that one can easily turn the engines by hand, where with the same engine configuration on another bike, you can't. It can be hard to isolate the exact effects of cam drag because in comparing engines, there are always other differences besides the valve train.

The differences aren't going to be measured in tens of horsepower, but they can be as high as 5 hp or so. Whether that's negligible or not is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.

Ducati Motogp bikes are thought to be the most powerful on the grid, though nobody has done a dyno comparison that I know of, so to some degree, this is speculation.

All that said, I think the desmo valve train is more trouble than it's worth (as implemented by Ducati) for street applications. The Panigale's engine has chain driven cams, which may be a step in the right direction for reliability.

 

[kiltwearinfool]

I just heard a loud cheer from the Ducati US HQ. Must have been from the Diavel product group :shrug.

 

[VicTim]

That's where I think you're misinterpreting my comments. I want H-D to have a bigger slice. They want to have a bigger slice.

The XR1200 should have been killed. H-D is good at killing unsuccessful products. What they're bad at is making new successful products, and if you don't think they need help in that area then you are disagreeing with their top management, not just me.

This is sacrilege but Willie G stepping down was a really important step in saving that company. They need a lot more housecleaning, but that's really hard to do in a company that is still posting profits and thanks to a market bounce looks like it's growing. Like I said, ~5 more years they'll be desperate enough to step out of their comfort zone and make more than half-assed efforts towards the youth market.

Welcome to 1992

 

[JO EBRMC]

Welcome to 1992

And what has changed since then?

 

[gixxerjeff]

And what has changed since then?

Only the price.
....well, that and one hundred billion starbux popped up to park them near.

 

[Papi]

h8rs being h8rs.

For some of us who really appreciate ALL kinds of different bikes, the rest of you sound like a bunch of little girls. The "my brand is better than your brand" BS is really tiring. Goes to show how small minded most folks really are I guess. Yet maybe like two or three in this post have actually ridden the XR1200 and like it. Most of the others posting have never ridden an HD at all, or can barely ride what they have now.

Hate on something worth hating at least.

 

[Caddywumpus]

Never ridden a Harley. Like Harleys (esp sporties).

Dislike the company to some extent, but I dislike Ducati for various reasons just like I dislike Honda for putting Vtec on the VFR.

 

[gixxerjeff]

h8rs being h8rs.

Hate on something worth hating at least.

I have always looked at Harley Davidson the same way I see the Oakland Raiders.
I don't hate the product nearly as much as I hate the "typical" fan.